And you're arrogant enough to lecture someone without knowing them.
Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency
- Thread starter ElizabethofYork
- Start date
Yes, I think this is a big problem in schools. Children are 'taught' what is important, how to think etc. The focus should be on experiencing and thinking for themselves.
Not to nitpick but the family repeatedly said his name was James. The media called him Jamie for their own purposes and myth-making around violence.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
I agree with you - mostly.
But i have changed my mind somewhat recently. I always used to get annoyed with people who suggested that women should learn self-defence techniques, because it felt a bit like victim-blaming.
However, I'm starting to think it mightnt be such a bad idea. We can't depend on the police, or any other organisation, to help us. We've tried that for many years, and it's failed dismally. We can't depend on boys being educated to treat girls and women with respect. That's failed dismally. We can't expect a post-feminist society to magically make things better - it hasn't.
So taking steps to defend ourselves is looking more and more sensible.
What's different about what you were suggesting with home ed?
This is my way of thinking as well. We have to find ways to protect ourselves. Violence against women has been going on for too long, and there's no sign of any progress to stop it.
Derek S-H
Klaatu. Barada. Nikto.
I think you're describing being pragmatic.
As I've stated before, it's too easy to be theoretical and intellectual about all this whilst ignoring the real-life effects.
To be honest, I'm a bit tired of statistics which "show" this or "prove" that - these are people with lived-in experiences and debating is one thing (I think we pretty much all know what we should do), but practising is another. Being mindful, tolerant and respectful really isn't that difficult, but it does take time and effort to become an automatic response.
In the meantime, I have absolutely no problem with anyone seeking practical solutions to make their lives easier and more manageable within the law, obviously.
Who said I would be using the established curriculum? If that were forced onto me, I would find ways to teach it without all the prejudices and conditioning that goes on in classrooms.
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
It feels like victim blaming because victims blame themselves for not fighting back. They hold themselves responsible for their own abuse because they ‘should’ have done x or y. How would you ensure this doesn’t happen?
You didn't, but you said bring them up without outside influences, so you are choosing what they are exposed to. That's your curriculum.
I was not actually referring to you
OK, I have edited.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
Absolutely. That's a very important consideration.
I've no issue with anyone learning self defence. But I do not see it as a "solution" to male violence against women. Mostly because it may help in a one on one situation with an opportunistic assault..but I don't see it working so well within a relationship...which is where many victims of violence are..
I know for a fact no matter how many self defence lessons I might take...I would never have the physical strength to stop someone or a group of men violently assaulting me. I used to be able to run pretty fast..but not anymore.
I would suggest that teaching girls how to run and seek help might also be a focus. How to always carry pepper spray or similar...how to carry an alarm...how to be aware of surroundings...how to avoid situations.. but again this does feel like victim blaming.
The real lessons need to be learned by young boys, teen boys and men.
tonysingh
Random Clever and Witty Strapline
There's a toxicity that, at the moment, women face no matter what they do in regards misogyny. For evidence of this, just read the comments on any TikTok or YouTube video of a woman being harassed. You'll see Ana astonishing amount of men diminishing her experience or outright blaming her for it. That's just one side of the hostile environment that women face.
I'm a man, so it's not for me to tell a woman how to behave or give tips or advice on how to handle the appalling behaviour of my fellow men. What is within my power to do is to speak out and correct poor and abusive behaviour when I see it. It's within my power and within every dudes power to live a life that sets a good example as well.
Harsher sentences for crimes involving domestic violence are alright but they're very much stable door and horse. The wanker that killed my cousin (a jealous ex) got 19 years. That doesn't seem right to me and I'm convinced he only got that long because he is a black man, if he'd been white then I suspect he'd have got less. The longer sentences though are only one side of a much deeper sickness within our society. We need to talk to our sons, brothers, uncles, friends etc etc and change attitudes. That level of national conversation has to come from us though.
I've said already that women face a hostile environment and they really do. It's not gonna change while I'm alive but we can start making steps towards improving things.
I'm a man, so it's not for me to tell a woman how to behave or give tips or advice on how to handle the appalling behaviour of my fellow men. What is within my power to do is to speak out and correct poor and abusive behaviour when I see it. It's within my power and within every dudes power to live a life that sets a good example as well.
Harsher sentences for crimes involving domestic violence are alright but they're very much stable door and horse. The wanker that killed my cousin (a jealous ex) got 19 years. That doesn't seem right to me and I'm convinced he only got that long because he is a black man, if he'd been white then I suspect he'd have got less. The longer sentences though are only one side of a much deeper sickness within our society. We need to talk to our sons, brothers, uncles, friends etc etc and change attitudes. That level of national conversation has to come from us though.
I've said already that women face a hostile environment and they really do. It's not gonna change while I'm alive but we can start making steps towards improving things.
Or any of the comments about women's football on HYS. Anyone would think men had guns being pointed at their heads and were being forced to watch it, the way they carry on. And when there are female pundits, they're 'diversity hires' (™Laurence Fox). I know male pundits and players get shit too, but there's an edge to the abuse women get, and it's often more sexualised. One of the reasons why I hate Joey Barton so much is the amount of men who see him as an aspirational figure and think he's right about women in sport, and in general.
But it isn't happening is it? And in the meantime women are being abused, attacked and murdered every single day. Domestic violence in the home is more difficult to find solutions for, but a woman should be able to defend herself by any means necessary. i know it's not as simple as that, but something has to change.
InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
Oh look yet another new member just pops up to attack marginalised women while white knighting ...
story
Changing the facts
Can you please stop having a go at people based on how long they’ve been on the boards, thanks.
InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
when you look at the rise 'home schooling' as a Political Movement in the US it;s almost entirely driven by MAGAt / Gammon talking points and usually places the empotional labour on the wives /mothers or elder female children.
If you compare this to the numbers in the UK 'Homeschooling' because of the Selfservative led attempts to exclude SEND children and/or LGBTQ+ children from schooling - it comes from desperation that schools are not a safe place on any level , but when the UK educational establishement lauds the likes of Birbalsingh what do you expect
InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
The fundamental problem with the suggestion as we saw with the poster who popped up yesterday and posted in such a away as to present it as some kind of panacea - which is where the victim blaming starts , and also ignores the evidence from trained individuals that the fancy , drilled techniques that are taught in the Dojo or in Police/Prison 'officer safety' and Health /Social Care PMVA simply don't work when it comes down to it and the techniques that a known to work and are known to be remembered as the techniques that are very high risk ones rather than the ones designed ot be 'painful' but not damaging and often rely on the subject 'allowing' the initial hold / lock to be put be in place.
Even well drilled and well practiced teams working within the guidelines maim and kill. - This is complete asside from those mainly in the Law Enforcement setting but sometimes in Psych / LD settings who go off piste in a restraint with actions / strikes which are off the scale ( and we saw in the last day or two in Mcr with the 'stomp' scenario at the Airpoert - regardless of the assault perpetrated on the initial responding Police officers )
This is the fundamental position you have ot accept - if you go into a combative hands on scenario you have to accept that the end result may be the death of one or more individuals and you have to be prepared to face the repercussions of that.
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RiderOnTheStorm
Well-Known Member
totally agree that the solution is education . Educate the boys before they become men.... and .... train girls in self defence so that they have the mental confidence to stand up for themselves. Much (not all) of the violence is perpetrated by bullies and standard thinking shows us that standing up to them is effective. Self-defence wont protect you against a group or a more powerful assailant but I believe it gives a person confidence to do something and overcome the paralysis of fear. It also paves the way for recovery when it doesnt.
My wife and I had a good conversation a while back about the whole "would you prefer to meet a bear or a man in a forest" and it opened my eyes. I am trying to get this across to my sons now. One of my sons has a daughter (she is 5). I really hope something improves before she is a teen. Until then, I will challenge misogyny when I find it, and I will encourage her to be confident and take no shit ..... martial arts or boxing will be thrown in there later too.
InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
Because society tells us this every damn time. The people holding power tell victims that the victims are the ones at fault, not the the systems and processes that power put in place .
InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
It's interesting how often men call women and girls they don't like bullies ... it's also interesting who the women they don't like are ... and what theat boils down to is women and girls who do not take their misogynistic shit , and who display characteristics which are praised in boys and men buit seen as unattractive and threatening in women
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Or because they're scared that they could then be subjected to abuse/violence.
Silas Loom
Hated by both sides
RiderOnTheStorm
Well-Known Member
very often we regret the things we didnt do , more than we regret the things we did .... There is a thing called the Bystander Effect that explains why we dont intervene in public situations. Again, education is the cure. Once you know about it, you can take steps....
Silas, at least you have thought about it over the years .... some wouldnt
Silas, at least you have thought about it over the years .... some wouldnt
I don't agree it's just 'education'. Information and telling people what to think does fuck all, any change is in the doing and practice of everyday life.
How about conflict resolution as a daily part of school experience right from the start? This would help with bullying, how to think about group dynamics and to notice when you go along with the group, how to notice when you project your own 'smallness' or 'weakness' into others where you then attack it, and how to advocate and stand up for yourself.
You need experienced well trained staff for this, who can lead groups, but also staff who are sensitive to the kind of bullying that isn't physical. Not teachers as they have enough to do.
And it would mean teachers and TAs questioning their own gendered expectations. It might mean a more highly trained teaching staff and TAs paid and trained to a higher standard. It might mean discussions with the class, in small groups, why it is that it's mainly women teaching? What does that mean to them and how does that shape attitudes? And teens, why do they think that the male teacher is a nonce? etc.
You can't teach 'respect'.
How about conflict resolution as a daily part of school experience right from the start? This would help with bullying, how to think about group dynamics and to notice when you go along with the group, how to notice when you project your own 'smallness' or 'weakness' into others where you then attack it, and how to advocate and stand up for yourself.
You need experienced well trained staff for this, who can lead groups, but also staff who are sensitive to the kind of bullying that isn't physical. Not teachers as they have enough to do.
And it would mean teachers and TAs questioning their own gendered expectations. It might mean a more highly trained teaching staff and TAs paid and trained to a higher standard. It might mean discussions with the class, in small groups, why it is that it's mainly women teaching? What does that mean to them and how does that shape attitudes? And teens, why do they think that the male teacher is a nonce? etc.
You can't teach 'respect'.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
There is an ‘ignore poster’ button which is a useful friend. We all have at least one person on there.
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