Meat eaters are destroying the planet, warns WWF report

[JimW]

I agree it's beside the point, just because some members of the bovine family may continue existing does not mean that one particular group (those bred for food) shouldn't be allowed to exist. Just like because some members of the canine family continuing existing does not mean that pet dogs shouldn't be allowed to exist, etc.

Why are you conflating "being allowed to exist" with pursuing commercial stock rearing? No-one is breeding English Water Spaniels anymore, they stopped, but they're allowed to exist. They just don't.

 

[Larry Noppius]

paragraph 2. You refuse to engage with my counter-argument why is this?

As far as I can see you haven't made an argument, you've made a series of assertions with no argumentative structure (you know, premises and derivation and conclusion). Try to be explicit on what your argument is.

 

[Larry Noppius]

Why are you conflating "being allowed to exist" with pursuing commercial stock rearing? No-one is breeding English Water Spaniels anymore, they stopped, but they're allowed to exist. They just don't.

Meh, change "being allowed to exist" to "shouldn't exist yet still be technically allowed to exist" in what I wrote.

 

[two sheds]

You've told me what I recommend even though I am telling you that I am not recommending what you claim I am. Talk about authoritarianism, aren't individuals supposedly allowed to decide for themselves what they do or don't recommend? You know, autonomy and all that.

Oh look, this isn't an argument. It's just contradiction

I'm just not sure that people would start drinking milk, eating cheese, and eating eggs to enough of an extent to offset the loss in populations due to not eating meat. Nor is it all that clear that this argument about the quality of life of the animals wouldn't apply to animals bred for those purposes rather than meat consumption.

Oh you're "not sure" now aren't you?? You're shifting goalposts. You were talking about animals like sheep not being allowed to exist. Of course they'll be allowed to exist. All the ones who are alive now will be allowed to exist, and the ones useful for wool will be bred and allowed to exist in the next generation.

Just like philosophers like yourself will be allowed to exist, we just shouldn't let them and telephone sanitizers breed to carry on the line to the next generation. That's not refusing to allow you to exist. Your whole argument is bollocks .

 

[JimW]

Meh, change "being allowed to exist" to "shouldn't exist yet still be technically allowed to exist" in what I wrote.

Your position still makes no sense. What's your grounds for prioritising the continued artificial maintenance of certain strains of livestock - you do also realise that absent quite concerted intervention many stock breeds would soon lose the characteristics they've been bred for. that's why there's money in insemination.
This is what I mean about it not all being semantics.

 

[ddraig]

Aren't your arms hurting from dragging the goalposts aroud Larry?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Here's an interesting article.

Actor Liam Hemsworth got kidney stones because of a vegan diet.

Actor Liam Hemsworth got kidney stones because of a vegan diet. Here's how - Times of India

The 30-year-old actor admitted that he underwent surgery for his kidney stones, which was probably linked to eating so many vegetables, as part of his vegan diet.

m.timesofindia.com

 

[Spymaster]

Aren't your arms hurting from dragging the goalposts aroud Larry?

From dragging you lot around, more like.

 

[planetgeli]

This thread is just...stewing beef.

 

[JimW]

From dragging you lot around, more like.

No, he's a sincere fellow is our Larry, seen him perform similarly on other topics.

 

[Larry Noppius]

Oh look, this isn't an argument. It's just contradiction

I do enjoy the self-importance implicit in just presuming that I'd care what people in this thread believe even to the point of arguing they should change their beliefs.

Oh you're "not sure" now aren't you?? You're shifting goalposts. You were talking about animals like sheep not being allowed to exist. Of course they'll be allowed to exist. All the ones who are alive now will be allowed to exist, and the ones useful for wool will be bred and allowed to exist in the next generation.

We were talking about animals being bred for meat, chickens in particular. That other animals are bred for other purposes does not mean that stopping to eat meat would stop the animals bred for their meat from existing.

Just like philosophers like yourself will be allowed to exist, we just shouldn't let them and telephone sanitizers breed to carry on the line to the next generation. That's not refusing to allow you to exist. Your whole argument is bollocks .

Don't worry, I don't engage in breeding humans. Then of course I'm also not going around telling others they shouldn't breed them either, to each their own and all that.

 

[Larry Noppius]

What's your grounds for prioritising the continued artificial maintenance of certain strains of livestock

It's in my interest as a meat eater. What's your grounds for expecting me to do otherwise?

 

[JimW]

It's in my interest as a meat eater. What's your grounds for expecting me to do otherwise?

Then it's of no relevance to a hypothetical about what would happen to them if people didn't breed them for meat so fuck knows why you're on about it. Do keep up.

 

[Pickman's model]

As far as I can see you haven't made an argument, you've made a series of assertions with no argumentative structure (you know, premises and derivation and conclusion). Try to be explicit on what your argument is.

i don't have to have an overarching argument to point out the shit your argument is based on. We're not a debating society, you know.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm just not sure that people would start drinking milk, eating cheese, and eating eggs to enough of an extent to offset the loss in populations due to not eating meat. Nor is it all that clear that this argument about the quality of life of the animals wouldn't apply to animals bred for those purposes rather than meat consumption.

"I'm not sure" doesn't impress me much. It's pisspoor tbh. Where's your vaunted argument now, Larry?

 

[Larry Noppius]

Then it's of no relevance to a hypothetical about what would happen to them if people didn't breed them for meat so fuck knows why you're on about it. Do keep up.

Of course it's relevant, I've even literally identified the relevant interest, because if people didn't breed them for meat then I couldn't eat the meat, now could I? It seems more that it's the vegigans who don't have a relevant interest on that, as they're not consuming the meat so how is it in their interest whether other people breed animals for meat or not?

 

[Larry Noppius]

i don't have to have an overarching argument to point out the shit your argument is based on. We're not a debating society, you know.

Then don't claim to have presented an argument that I supposedly missed either. We're also not a "sending people off on useless quests re-reading previous posts looking for non-existent arguments" society, I hope?

 

[Proper Tidy]

I haven't seen anybody get a thread battering like this since that welles character was on here in his paleo lick raw liver phase

 

[JimW]

Of course it's relevant, I've even literally identified the relevant interest, because if people didn't breed them for meat then I couldn't eat the meat, now could I? It seems more that it's the vegigans who don't have a relevant interest on that, as they're not consuming the meat so how is it in their interest whether other people breed animals for meat or not?

Only if we're having a different argument to your "not allowed" performance a while back. There you were attempting some spurious moral equivalence with eugenics, which was fun as gotchas go. Now you've skipped off somewhere else.

 

[two sheds]

I do enjoy the self-importance implicit in just presuming that I'd care what people in this thread believe even to the point of arguing they should change their beliefs.

Oh look, this isn't an argument. You're just contradicting me.

An argument isn't just contradiction. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

 

[Larry Noppius]

Then don't claim to have presented an argument that I supposedly missed either. We're also not a "sending people off on useless quests re-reading previous posts looking for non-existent arguments" society, I hope?

See, two sheds, that would be an example of me arguing people should change their behaviour. You can tell the difference by me having an actual interest in not being sent off on such useless quests.

 

[Pickman's model]

Then don't claim to have presented an argument that I supposedly missed either.

i didn't say you missed it. i said you'd refused to engage with it. please don't tell such easily uncovered lies.

We're also not a "sending people off on useless quests re-reading previous posts looking for non-existent arguments" society, I hope?

you said that these animals would all die unless meat eaters kept them about. my point (or counter-argument or whatever you want to call it) was that that was simply not true. you've not rebutted it, you've just said you're not sure.

 

[two sheds]

See, two sheds, that would be an example of me arguing people should change their behaviour. You can tell the difference by me having an actual interest in not being sent off on such useless quests.

What, like when you posted this below? Mind you not a useless quest, was easy enough to find

What recommendation have I made and what behaviour have I told others to perform? Could you provide a quote? Have I recommended others to eat meat or stop breeding humans?

Hence why I look forward to the quote you'll be providing. I can't remember recommending anything or telling others how to behave.

 

[deeyo]

Here's an interesting article.

Actor Liam Hemsworth got kidney stones because of a vegan diet.

Actor Liam Hemsworth got kidney stones because of a vegan diet. Here's how - Times of India

The 30-year-old actor admitted that he underwent surgery for his kidney stones, which was probably linked to eating so many vegetables, as part of his vegan diet.

m.timesofindia.com

1
Current evidence favours a diet low in animal protein and rich in vegetables to prevent kidney stones.
'In fact, it was estimated that consuming high amount of fruit and vegetables in addition to low-fat diary products is capable of lowering the risk of stone events by up to a 45%.'

Just add milk, liam.

Risk of Kidney Stones: Influence of Dietary Factors, Dietary Patterns, and Vegetarian–Vegan Diets

Nephrolithiasis is a common medical condition influenced by multiple environmental factors, including diet. Since nutritional habits play a relevant role in the genesis and recurrence of kidney stones disease, dietary manipulation has become a fundamental ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Pickman's model]

As far as I can see you haven't made an argument, you've made a series of assertions with no argumentative structure (you know, premises and derivation and conclusion). Try to be explicit on what your argument is.

i think we've established that you've a history of not reading posts you quote. in the post here you quoted me saying you'd refused to engage with a point i made. on another thread you ended up having to apologise to me. how can you properly engage with what people are saying when you refuse to actually read and process their posts?

 

[Pickman's model]

I haven't seen anybody get a thread battering like this since that welles character was on here in his paleo lick raw liver phase

yer man's as honest as awesome welles too.

 

[Larry Noppius]

i didn't say you missed it. i said you'd refused to engage with it. please don't tell such easily uncovered lies.

Interesting how you use the term "lies" so easily, as I have not "refused" to engage with any argument - if there is an argument I haven't addressed it's because I missed it.

you said that these animals would all die unless meat eaters kept them about. my point (or counter-argument or whatever you want to call it) was that that was simply not true. you've not rebutted it, you've just said you're not sure.

I had already addressed the point that other animals (sometimes from the same biological classes) would keep existing:

I agree it's beside the point, just because some members of the bovine family may continue existing does not mean that one particular group (those bred for food) shouldn't be allowed to exist. Just like because some members of the canine family continuing existing does not mean that pet dogs shouldn't be allowed to exist, etc.

This doesn't negate that the animals bred for their meat would stop existing (either going extinct in some cases, or having their populations drastically reduced in other cases where there are other uses such as wool or eggs).

 

[Funky_monks]

 

[Larry Noppius]

What, like when you posted this below? Mind you not a useless quest, was easy enough to find

Yes, you claimed I had told people to change their beliefs to conform with mine. You were asked to provide a quote but failed to do so, you only provided a quote in which I said no such thing, which was then pointed out to you. You then simply declared that you already "told me once" what I am purportedly supposed to tell people, to which I responded that I had no interest in doing so and that it's obviously my decision as to what I will or will not recommend people to do. To which you then started complaining about being "contradicted."

 

[Saul Goodman]

1
Current evidence favours a diet low in animal protein and rich in vegetables to prevent kidney stones.
'In fact, it was estimated that consuming high amount of fruit and vegetables in addition to low-fat diary products is capable of lowering the risk of stone events by up to a 45%.'

Just add milk, liam.

Risk of Kidney Stones: Influence of Dietary Factors, Dietary Patterns, and Vegetarian–Vegan Diets

Nephrolithiasis is a common medical condition influenced by multiple environmental factors, including diet. Since nutritional habits play a relevant role in the genesis and recurrence of kidney stones disease, dietary manipulation has become a fundamental ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Vegan milk?