Mark Duggan shooting inquest in London finally starts...

[SpookyFrank]

Hollow point bullets are banned by the hague convention for armed forces on the grounds they might cause more injury than a full metal jacketed round. Police use them as they shouldn't go through the person your shooting and you don't have to shoot him so many times.
As their supposed to fire one round and then re asses the target before firing again.
While the Army would shoot him lots of times and then a few more times just to be sure. Then if allowed get something bigger to shoot him with and then throw a few grenades and finally crawl up and bayonet him. So hollow points are really not needed.

I have no love for soldiers (well, I fucking despise soldiers) but at least they display some professionalism in their use and handling of lethal firearms. Not least because they are at least occasionally brought to book for fucking up and blowing the wrong person's head off.

Coppers on the other hand I often see strolling around with their finger on the trigger of their weapon. Which is one of the first things any sort of firearms intruction would teach you not to do.

 

[laptop]

i think it was bob black who said cops are terrorists with the right credentials

Crime goes down when you recruit more cops. Of course.

 

[Pickman's model]

Crime goes down when you recruit more cops. Of course.

are you sure? given the cops effectively refuse to investigate many muggings, cycle thefts, and apparently burglaries, it's hard to know whether the claims about declining crime were correct. now that they're reducing the number of cops those former officers will have no reason to refrain from going into 'business' on their own account.

 

[DotCommunist]

a vast sea of PCSO's and hobby bobbies is the way forward. That will deffo cut down on slipshod hit jobs, extorting sex and money from street workers and dubious 'protection' rackets

 

[DaveCinzano]

a vast sea of PCSO's and hobby bobbies is the way forward. That will deffo cut down on slipshod hit jobs, extorting sex and money from street workers and dubious 'protection' rackets

Avon & Somerset Chief Constable Nick Gargan wants to set up a force of volunteer part-time PCSOs!

 

[DotCommunist]

Gargantuan bellend by the sounds of it.

He can't be much worse than our eggheaded PCC who was elected on 8 percent turnout and immediately set up two teirs below him and started eyeing up fire and ambulance budgets. And saying that there should be a bring back of Police Boxes. We're being run by crooks morons and liars and they haven't even the decency to do a clean job of mugging us off.

 

[Pickman's model]

Avon & Somerset Chief Constable Nick Gargan wants to set up a force of volunteer part-time PCSOs!

perhaps the 'a' specials.

 

[Pickman's model]

Gargantuan bellend by the sounds of it.

He can't be much worse than our eggheaded PCC who was elected on 8 percent turnout and immediately set up two teirs below him and started eyeing up fire and ambulance budgets. And saying that there should be a bring back of Police Boxes. We're being run by crooks morons and liars and they haven't even the decency to do a clean job of mugging us off.

can't get the crooks these days

 

[DotCommunist]

Avon & Somerset Chief Constable Nick Gargan wants to set up a force of volunteer part-time PCSOs!

This would basically be Neighborhood Watch people given a shred of legitimacy wouldn't it

 

[laptop]

are you sure? given the cops effectively refuse to investigate many muggings, cycle thefts, and apparently burglaries, it's hard to know whether the claims about declining crime were correct.

I was thinking mainly of the effect on traffic offences: give the boy racers a job and make their activities compulsory, with blue lights, and road crime falls

now that they're reducing the number of cops those former officers will have no reason to refrain from going into 'business' on their own account.

A worry indeed, and the necessary corollary confirming my argument

 

[DaveCinzano]

This would basically be Neighborhood Watch people given a

BADGE AND A GUN

 

[DotCommunist]

derail aside, JUST LOOK AT THIS MAN

we shall all sleep safer in our beds knowing this twat has hived off a significant proportion of the policing budget for Northamptonshire

 

[ViolentPanda]

Just catching up with this today - what's this about the trajectory of the round to the chest, the fatal shot, that's says he could not have been standing at the time? An execution whilst laying on the ground writhing in pain from the first round?

Or shot as he exited the taxi (i.e. still bent over, and with his hands occupied).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yep.

It seems like the Met's justication for using ammo that even the army declines is on the basis that it 'incapacitates' the victim. Strange then that they'd decide to incapacitate twice over, the second round entering Duggan whilst he was leaning forward from the arm shot.

International conventions ban the use by armed forces of any round that is not fully jacketed.
This was at least partly brought into force (some 80+ years ago) because unjacketed rounds fragment inside the body, causing much more work to repair bullet damage, and because semi-jacketed rounds cause much greater tissue loss and trauma through expansion of the bullet after impact. Great if your're hunting deer, not so great if you're shooting at people.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I believe the justification for police using hollowpoint rounds has to do with them being less likely to go straight through the target and hit someone else behind them. IIRC hollowpoints are banned for use in warfare under international law, but apparently this doesn't apply to police forces. By the same logic it would be OK to use landmines so long as you only used them on your own citizens.

IMO the only way to stop plods shooting the wrong people is to not give them guns.

If that's their argument, it's a bad one. Penetration isn't just about whether a bullet is jacketed, semi-jacketed or non-jacketed, it's also about how much powder is behind the bullet, in the shell case. Put enough powder (even within the safety limit for a standard brass case) behind a plain lead bullet and it'll have enough kinetic energy to hit one person, fragment while going through them, and then penetrate another body.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Many's the time I've been shot with a normal bullet and carried on about my business pretty much unhindered.

TBF, that can happen...


...if you've been shot with a .22 pistol, which unless you've stoked up the round pretty heavily, doesn't have enough penetrating power to kill with a shot to centre mass (unless the shooter is very lucky, or the shootee is very unlucky).

 

[ViolentPanda]

I have no love for soldiers (well, I fucking despise soldiers) but at least they display some professionalism in their use and handling of lethal firearms. Not least because they are at least occasionally brought to book for fucking up and blowing the wrong person's head off.

Coppers on the other hand I often see strolling around with their finger on the trigger of their weapon. Which is one of the first things any sort of firearms intruction would teach you not to do.

It's something you used to be kicked off of a police firearms course for. You should always have your finger resting on the trigger-guard, not the trigger. It's no slower to deploy your weapon, and so much safer for any innocent bystanders.
I had a bit of schadenfruede with a City of London cop after the Baltic Exchange bomb, when they were thicker on the ground than flies on shit -

Me: "excuse me officer, can I speak freely?"
Him: "what"
Me: "do you mind putting your fucking safety on, like you're supposed to?" (his safety was set to red, which is single shot on semi -auto carbines, and burst (3 rounds) fire on auto carbines)
"oh shit..."

Needless to say, I have very little faith in police-trained "marksmen". Being able to hit a barndoor with a short-barrelled weapon from a range of 5-15 metres isn't exactly marksmanship.

 

[TopCat]

An officer ran from the scene of Mark Duggan's police shooting holding an object that appeared to be wrapped in cloth, an inquest has heard.

A witness, who was 16 at the time, said an officer had gathered something close to the minicab Mr Duggan was in before running towards Tottenham Hale.

Giving evidence via videolink, she said she thought "that looked dodgy".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25089860

This is looking as murky as glastonbury mud.

 

[equationgirl]

It's something you used to be kicked off of a police firearms course for. You should always have your finger resting on the trigger-guard, not the trigger. It's no slower to deploy your weapon, and so much safer for any innocent bystanders.
I had a bit of schadenfruede with a City of London cop after the Baltic Exchange bomb, when they were thicker on the ground than flies on shit -

Me: "excuse me officer, can I speak freely?"
Him: "what"
Me: "do you mind putting your fucking safety on, like you're supposed to?" (his safety was set to red, which is single shot on semi -auto carbines, and burst (3 rounds) fire on auto carbines)
"oh shit..."

Needless to say, I have very little faith in police-trained "marksmen". Being able to hit a barndoor with a short-barrelled weapon from a range of 5-15 metres isn't exactly marksmanship.

Fucks sake even I can do that, and I am certainly no ubersniper.

 

[Tankus]

Worth a punt down the bookies that they find Harvey Oswald's prints on the gun?

It all seems a bit magic

 

[SpookyFrank]

Giving evidence via videolink, she said she thought "that looked dodgy".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25089860

From that link:

Jurors have been told a gun was found about 20ft (6m) from where Mr Duggan, who police thought was armed, was shot.

If it had been anyone else but coppers involved this quote would read 'Mr Duggan, whose killers claim they thought he was armed...'

It can scarcely be a matter of public record what was going through someone's head at a particular moment in time, so why report someone's thoughts as fact? This is not a trivial distinction, in fact it might well mean the difference between self-defence and cold blooded murder. And yet with a single sloppy line the BBC has effectively settled the matter. This inquiry will doubtless result in yet another whitewash, and once again the BBC is gladly assisting with that process.

 

[TopCat]

scumbagwash

 

[everything2go]

I'm predicting a whitewash. I wonder how all those nicked for (quite justifiably) rioting feel about the dodgy picture that's being painted by this inquest?

 

[likesfish]

Mark duggan was a crim when his family come out with "he was no angel" Usually means a professional crim and he probably did have a gun.

But they still fucked this up maybe they did fuck the stop up it happens, guns stress and Mark Duggan probably didnt know what thr fuck was happening or what he was suppoused to do, they have done research and time and time again shouting arrgesive orders towards people doesnt get them to obey orders.

 

[8ball]

I'm predicting a whitewash. I wonder how all those nicked for (quite justifiably) rioting feel about the dodgy picture that's being painted by this inquest?

Quite justifiably nicked or quite justifiably rioting?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Mark duggan was a crim when his family come out with "he was no angel" Usually means a professional crim and he probably did have a gun.

He didn't have a criminal record.

 

[everything2go]

Quite justifiably nicked or quite justifiably rioting?

Ha ha, that is a tad ambiguous, nearly came over all daily mail there. Justifiably rioting

 

[8ball]

He didn't have a criminal record.

And yet according to the Indie: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/mark-duggan-among-europes-most-feared-and-violent-criminals-before-his-death-sparked-the-2011-riots-8835363.html

Not just London, or the UK - one of Europe's most feared wrong 'uns.

This would appear to show a quite amazing record for not being caught/convicted.

 

[likesfish]

The counsel to the inquest, Ashley Underwood, pointed out that Mr Duggan’s criminal record was relatively light considering he was a serious gang member.

Mr Duggan’s criminal record showed he had only been convicted of minor offences such handling stolen goods and possession of cannabis.

The detective inspector said the Mr Duggan had also been arrested for a number of other offences which do not appear on his record because he was not successfully convicted.
http://www.haringeyindependent.co.u...n__among_most_violent_men_in_Europe_/?ref=rss

So completely innocent law abding member of the public who the police put under survillence just becasue?
Or criminal they hadn't manage to put behind bars because everybody just loves to come forward to act as wittnesses in gangster cases?
Even if it was a good shoot the police screwed the resulting investigation up.

 

[everything2go]

And yet according to the Indie: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/mark-duggan-among-europes-most-feared-and-violent-criminals-before-his-death-sparked-the-2011-riots-8835363.html

Not just London, or the UK - one of Europe's most feared wrong 'uns.

This would appear to show a quite amazing record for not being caught/convicted.

The article said he had a minor criminal record, but made the assumption that he was one of Europe's most feared and violent by his alleged association with the Tottenham Mandem gang.