Mark Duggan shooting inquest in London finally starts...

[goldenecitrone]

"Hi, my name's Terry. I shot a Brazilian bloke on the underground."

 

[trabuquera]

vikram dodd @VikramDodd
v53 says the shooting has had "a detrimental effect on my homelife" and says his family as well as the #Duggan's have been effected

well, if you think that shooting other people, or being shot yourself, might ruin your life, or your family life, that might be a good reason not to join a local gang / a police armed response unit, mightn't it??

 

[A380]

Indeed:

Riot From Wrong @RiotfromWrong
"I clearly saw police shoot Mark #Duggan in the back, I saw the feathers fly out of his jacket" (TD)

And then under cross examination the taxi driver said that he didn't see the police shoot at all.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

And then under cross examination the taxi driver said that he didn't see the police shoot at all.

Is that from the transcript? All I can find is this:

18 Q. You were looking at him when he was shooting; is that
19 right?
20 A. Yes. When he fired the shot, I looked at him -- when he
21 fired the shot, and I heard the shot, then I looked at
22 him.
23 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: The witness put his hands up just
24 then, could you clarify that's what he means about the
25 position of the gun?

63

1 A. Yes, I saw him fire his shot.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

vikram dodd @VikramDodd
Miss j said she saw #duggan being dragged by police from car. Jury heard duggan exited car and shot on pavement

Riot From Wrong @RiotfromWrong
MJ adamant she saw offcr take gun out of car cover it with a blk cloth, run to show somebody with "an expression like hed found gold"#Duggan

 

[brogdale]

vikram dodd @VikramDodd
Miss j said she saw #duggan being dragged by police from car. Jury heard duggan exited car and shot on pavement

Riot From Wrong @RiotfromWrong
MJ adamant she saw offcr take gun out of car cover it with a blk cloth, run to show somebody with "an expression like hed found gold"#Duggan

Oh dear, these witnesses just don't seem to have learnt the script, do they. They must be very unreliable.

 

[TopCat]

Oh dear, these witnesses just don't seem to have learnt the script, do they. They must be very unreliable.

Cue predictable slander in the right wing press.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Ref the coroners report; is it just this case where it's not being made public under RIPA?

 

[TopCat]

Ref the coroners report; is it just this case where it's not being made public under RIPA?

Is this it? That is has not been published and RIPA is somehow the reason?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Yep.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Wiki says IPCC claim RIPA prevents them disclosing any information, and the IPCC has all the evidence a coroner would need.

^^ from a mate on twitter convo we are having

 

[DaveCinzano]

As far as I understand - from having tried to get a full transcript from the Sean Rigg inquest - coroner's courts are not 'public bodies' and so are exempted from the strictures of FoI.

Inquests are meant to be open to the public, subject to the normal provisions for excluding members of the public from some parts of the inquest in some circumstances.

"Interested parties" can obtain material and evidence, but it seems that there is no real standard method of provision.

http://www.coronerscourtssupportservice.org.uk/faq-s/#34

Different inquests are conducted in different ways - for example, the Ian Tomlinson inquest was open to the public, required no pre-registration, no ID - straight-forward walk-in-off-the-street stuff.

It was properly recorded both by a stenographer & digital recording equipment throughout, with full transcripts of each day's proceedings published on the inquest's website (along with written evidence, audio and visual material).

An overflow room was provided with full video/audio link to the main room.

It was also one of the first if not the first court proceedings in the UK in which tweeting etc were expressly permitted from within the court room.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Ref the coroners report; is it just this case where it's not being made public under RIPA?

It's a big day for RIPA - over at the Court of Appeal lawyers for the police have been arguing that under the Act spy cops are expressly empowered to fuck their surveillance targets in the line of duty, whilst pretending to be someone else, despite any issues of lack of informed consent; and that at the same time that it would be unfair to both the cops' and their police forces if these matters were dealt with in a proper court room rather than a secretive Investigatory Powers Tribunal.

 

[DaveCinzano]

And then under cross examination the taxi driver said that he didn't see the police shoot at all.

From reading back through the transcript, he said quite clearly that he did see the police shoot Duggan, and that was what he said under examination by Mr Stern, representing the firearms officers:

p62

18 Q. You were looking at him [the police officer who shot Mark Duggan] when he was shooting; is that

19 right?

20 A. Yes. When he fired the shot, I looked at him -- when he

21 fired the shot, and I heard the shot, then I looked at

22 him.

23 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: The witness put his hands up just

24 then, could you clarify that's what he means about the

25 position of the gun?


p63

1 A. Yes, I saw him fire his shot.

http://dugganinquest.independent.gov.uk/transcripts/1183.htm

 

[Pickman's model]

It's a big day for RIPA - over at the Court of Appeal lawyers for the police have been arguing that under the Act spy cops are expressly empowered to fuck their surveillance targets in the line of duty, whilst pretending to be someone else, despite any issues of lack of informed consent; and that at the same time that it would be unfair to both the cops' and their police forces if these matters were dealt with in a proper court room rather than a secretive Investigatory Powers Tribunal.

sorry, do you mean the courts of justice on the strand or the appeals court?

 

[DaveCinzano]

sorry, do you mean the courts of justice on the strand or the appeals court?

The Court of Appeal at the RCJ on The Strand.

Per this:

Appeal against secret court – 15 & 16 October 2013
By admin | Published: October 8, 2013
Press Release - 8 October 2013

• Claimants fight for human rights cases to be heard in open court, not in secret tribunal

• Last chance to ensure press and public scrutiny of Mark Kennedy’s police commanders over Human Rights Act abuses, amid judge’s “alarming” James Bond reference

On 15 and 16 October 2013 the Appeal Court will hear arguments seeking to overturn a decision which directed that human rights legal actions over undercover police relationships should be heard in a secret court.

When: Tuesday 15 October 2013 and Wednesday 16 October 2013, time tbc
Where: Court of Appeal, Royal Courts of Justice, Strand, London
Contact for comment: Harriet Wistrich of Birnberg Pierce and Partners – 0207 911 0166

 

[DaveCinzano]

Yesterday's transcript now up, including Miss J's testimony:

http://dugganinquest.independent.gov.uk/transcripts/1225.htm

3 [Michael Mansfield] Now, first of all, do you have a recollection now of
4 all this or was that your best recollection in

5 November 2011?

6 A. [Miss J] Do you know what, 2011 is, what, two years ago, right?

7 I've had a lot of things -- a lot of things have

8 happened and, if I say to you, "Yes, I remember",

9 I would be lying. Right, but one thing I can tell you

10 is that I saw an officer come out the car, right, place

11 the handgun on a black -- he had a gun on a black piece

12 of material. That much I can -- I remember, and it will

13 never leave me, right, for the simple reason, right,

14 it's not often that you see a gun in broad daylight.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Miss J's evidence summarised in The Voice:

http://www.voice-online.co.uk/article/witness-police-took-gun-duggans-cab-after-shooting

 

[DaveCinzano]

Riot From Wrong ‏@RiotfromWrong
Court shown flip charts used by police to confer on their statements, these include colour of taxi, timing, rd names chronology etc #Duggan

3:23 PM - 22 Oct 13

 

[brogdale]

Riot From Wrong ‏@RiotfromWrong
Court shown flip charts used by police to confer on their statements, these include colour of taxi, timing, rd names chronology etc #Duggan

3:23 PM - 22 Oct 13

Haven't we heard about this particular policing technique in some other cases of alleged conspiracy currently under investigation?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

‏@RiotfromWrong
LT "your there, w an unobstructed view, ur looking at the gun, What happened to the Gun!?!" W70 "I don't know" #Duggan

 

[Mr.Bishie]

‏@RiotfromWrong
LT "you don't see him throw a gun, and yet you go and grab him!?! that's insanity isn't it?" W70 "no because I could see his hands" #Duggan

Too fucking right it's insane.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Last week:

MAGIC GUN

This week:

MAGIC HANDS

 

[DotCommunist]

Maybe we will find the truth eventually, 10 feet away, in a sock behind some railings

 

[trabuquera]

curiouser and curiouser. I am baffled. Aren't fitups generally supposed to go a bit more smoothly than this? Most of the scenarios I'd dreamed up of how this event happened (some of which blame the cops, some Duggan) are now being contradicted by one witness or another. Can't figure out WTH happened.

Or perhaps the gun levitated itself over a fence by sheer force of will.

 

[DotCommunist]

curiouser and curiouser. I am baffled. Aren't fitups generally supposed to go a bit more smoothly than this? Most of the scenarios I'd dreamed up of how this event happened (some of which blame the cops, some Duggan) are now being contradicted by one witness or another. Can't figure out WTH happened.

Or perhaps the gun levitated itself over a fence by sheer force of will.

I think with most fit ups you don't have the additional panic of having managed to heroically shoot one of your mates during the whack job.

in the radio, thats a lucky lucky copper

 

[DaveCinzano]

curiouser and curiouser. I am baffled. Aren't fitups generally supposed to go a bit more smoothly than this?

This, really - seeing as they had flash cards and flip charts to go through all the minute details of everything before (and after) the operation, only for loads of the details to be wrong, and then for them to en masse recite the learned-but-wrong details in their statements (and at the inquest for some of the less-able-to-freestyle ones).

And then all the wildly contradictory evidence: not just contradicting each other - but contradicting themselves, sometimes one sentence after another.

And then admitting that statements weren't correctly recorded.

And, and, and...

A bunch of incompetent, homicidal morons.

Bizarre.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

I think with most fit ups you don't have the additional panic of having managed to heroically shoot one of your mates during the whack job.

in the radio, thats a lucky lucky copper

W42 (lucky cop) giving evidence now. Should be interesting.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

A bunch of incompetent, homicidal morons.

Disarm the bastards.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

@MattProdger
W42 was armed with 3 guns on the day

Yee haa!