Mark Duggan shooting inquest in London finally starts...

[littlebabyjesus]

Eh? I'm pointing out ways in which the test suggested in the coroner's instructions gave the cop more leeway than Williams appears to have had.

Did they, though? In the Williams case, the reasonableness or not of the belief was judged irrelevant. All that mattered was that the court believed that his belief was honestly held. That's the same, isn't it? Here, the case again hinged only on whether or not the jury believed that the copper had an honest belief.

 

[laptop]

Did they, though? In the Williams case, the reasonableness or not of the belief was judged irrelevant. All that mattered was that the court believed that his belief was honestly held. That's the same, isn't it? Here, the case again hinged only on whether or not the jury believed that the copper had an honest belief.

As I understand it:

• Williams appeal: did have an honestly-held belief
• Duggan inquest: may have had the same.

 

[Chrispeptide]

Interesting piece from Paul Embery regional secretary of the Fire Brigades Union (London region) on the shooting of Duggan. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/paul-embery/mark-duggan-killing_b_4600351.html

 

[DotCommunist]

hard evidence that Duggan, a convicted criminal with gangster connections, took possession, on that fateful day, of a gun (for the supply of which an associate was later jailed); plainly harboured malevolent intentions of one sort or another, possibly involving taking another life, when he travelled with it in a taxi; and was holding the weapon when he alighted the vehicle after it was stopped (albeit that he tossed it aside a micro-second before the first bullet struck him).

yeah

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Interesting piece from Paul Embery regional secretary of the Fire Brigades Union (London region) on the shooting of Duggan. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/paul-embery/mark-duggan-killing_b_4600351.html

He was the wrong sort of victim. Fuck's sake.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

yeah

Good grief. He actually believes the verdict.

 

[Citizen66]

Interesting piece from Paul Embery regional secretary of the Fire Brigades Union (London region) on the shooting of Duggan. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/paul-embery/mark-duggan-killing_b_4600351.html

You only seem to post on this subject.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Interesting piece from Paul Embery regional secretary of the Fire Brigades Union (London region) on the shooting of Duggan. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/paul-embery/mark-duggan-killing_b_4600351.html

That has really pissed me off. He's a credulous fool who's swallowed the police smears whole without even chewing. What a total cunt.

 

[8ball]

That has really pissed me off. He's a credulous fool who's swallowed the police smears whole without even chewing. What a total cunt.

Tbf unless you look into it properly what can you do - it's been a united front of police and media on this with nary an awkward question asked.

edit: Oh, I see he seems to think Duggan actually started the riots. Ignore me, fuck him.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Tbf unless you look into it properly what can you do .

Refrain from writing articles about it?

 

[DotCommunist]

Good grief. He actually believes the verdict.

and gets his 'if you disagree you are a soft-liberal dreamer' digs in early.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Mark Duggan was no Steve Biko.

 

[frogwoman]

Tbf unless you look into it properly what can you do - it's been a united front of police and media on this with nary an awkward question asked.

edit: Oh, I see he seems to think Duggan actually started the riots. Ignore me, fuck him.

he did start the riots - by being shot or rather, the police started them

 

[littlebabyjesus]

he did start the riots - by being shot or rather, the police started them

His mum started them.

 

[IC3D]

The riots started when the Duggan family went to the police station to peacefully protest and a group of police attacked a 16yr old girl

 

[Balbi]

You know this image, of scowly hardened criminal Mark Duggan?



Look at that face. Grim, angry, criminal.

Oh, it's taken as he visited his daughters grave.



Fucking hell

 

[Tankus]

Changed my life ...

I left London from a growing disenchantment ,and a concern for what was coming next . I honestly did not expect the lid to be replaced and screwed back on tight ........at the time .

 

[DotCommunist]

The riots started when the Duggan family went to the police station to peacefully protest and a group of police attacked a 16yr old girl

iirc at this point they hadn't even been allowed to identify the body

 

[IC3D]

I've searched the thread but has this statement from the IPCC investigation been posted.

PCC DOCUMENT RE: DUGGAN INQUEST:
This document, written by someone from the IPCC [the useless 'independent body' charged with punishing errant coppers] appears to suggest that a police officer stated another officer threw the Duggan gun which would suggest the crime scene had been altered to fit in with the officers' version of events. These are now all publicly available documents and a link to them is posted below - peruse them for yourselves.

Link to inquest documents:
http://dugganinquest.independent.gov.uk/evidence.htm

Link to document [pictured]:
http://dugganinquest.independent.gov.uk/docs/CD027297.pdf

 

[TopCat]

http://dugganinquest.independent.gov.uk/docs/CD027297.pdf

 

[sojourner]

There does appear to be an 'honest belief' defence, in fact:

So we just come down to whether or not the police officer's statement that he honestly held the belief is credible. You or I cannot just say that our belief is honest - we also have to be believed, as in:

Is that from a trial though?

Are they not different to an inquest by jury?

 

[sojourner]

Interesting piece from Paul Embery regional secretary of the Fire Brigades Union (London region) on the shooting of Duggan. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/paul-embery/mark-duggan-killing_b_4600351.html

Where to begin with 'so much fucking wrong with that'?

First, I don't believe anyone 'took at face value the glib claim' etc.

Second, the writer is saying he is stating 'truths'. He's not. There IS no hard evidence he took possession of a gun, save the 'intelligence'. The guy who supplied the gun was convicted on perjury by police. MD 'plainly harboured malevolent intentions' - he did?! Fuck off! He 'was holding the weapon when he alighted the vehicle'? Jesus.

I'm not going on with that - the Huffington is usually okay, but that's an arse-wipe of an article. How insulting too.

 

[sojourner]

View attachment 46539

http://dugganinquest.independent.gov.uk/docs/CD027297.pdf

the fuck?!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Is that from a trial though?

Are they not different to an inquest by jury?

Not so different. In a criminal trial, conviction has to pass the test 'beyond reasonable doubt'. In this inquest, the verdict 'unlawful killing' also had to pass that test. But failing that, there were two other verdicts available - lawful killing and open verdict, both of which needed only to pass the lower 'balance of probabilities' test. The jury decided that the balance of probabilities was that it was more likely than not that the copper had an honest belief that Duggan was pointing a gun at him.

 

[TopCat]

I wish I had the time to lay out all the documentation from the inquest.

Where to begin with 'so much fucking wrong with that'?

First, I don't believe anyone 'took at face value the glib claim' etc.

Second, the writer is saying he is stating 'truths'. He's not. There IS no hard evidence he took possession of a gun, save the 'intelligence'. The guy who supplied the gun was convicted on perjury by police. MD 'plainly harboured malevolent intentions' - he did?! Fuck off! He 'was holding the weapon when he alighted the vehicle'? Jesus.

I'm not going on with that - the Huffington is usually okay, but that's an arse-wipe of an article. How insulting too.

It's not suprising. The fire brigade work hand in hand with the police and share a lot of similar attitudes.

 

[TopCat]

The evidence at the link http://dugganinquest.independent.gov.uk/evidence.htm is fascinating. I did not realise it is a matter of public record. I have been going thus far on the transcripts only. Probably a good idea to download the lot quick.

 

[sojourner]

Not so different. In a criminal trial, conviction has to pass the test 'beyond reasonable doubt'. In this inquest, the verdict 'unlawful killing' also had to pass that test. But failing that, there were two other verdicts available - lawful killing and open verdict, both of which needed only to pass the lower 'balance of probabilities' test. The jury decided that the balance of probabilities was that it was more likely than not that the copper had an honest belief that Duggan was pointing a gun at him.

Mmm...still think that the specific wording makes it so much more difficult in the inquest situation.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Mmm...still think that the specific wording makes it so much more difficult in the inquest situation.

It seems that it did. I'm not sure why, though. If the jury thought it more likely than not that the copper was lying, but wasn't sure what had really happened to make him lie, they could have returned an open verdict. They in fact decided that it was more likely than not that the copper had thought he had seen a gun as he had described, despite also deciding that it was more likely than not that Duggan had thrown the gun away before that moment.

I can't think of any adequate way to describe that. Whatever the difficulties of the procedure, it is absurd, perverse, nonsensical.

 

[sojourner]

It seems that it did. I'm not sure why, though. If the jury thought it more likely than not that the copper was lying, but wasn't sure what had really happened to make him lie, they could have returned an open verdict. They in fact decided that it was more likely than not that the copper had thought he had seen a gun as he had described, despite also deciding that it was more likely than not that Duggan had thrown the gun away before that moment.

I can't think of any adequate way to describe that. Whatever the difficulties of the procedure, it is absurd, perverse, nonsensical.

Yep. Every way you turn it over to examine it, that's how it comes out.

Despite having all that knowledge...

 

[leanderman]

The evidence at the link http://dugganinquest.independent.gov.uk/evidence.htm is fascinating. I did not realise it is a matter of public record. I have been going thus far on the transcripts only. Probably a good idea to download the lot quick.

It's a treasure trove. Fascinating stuff