Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
took that as read
Mark Duggan shooting inquest in London finally starts...
- Thread starter TopCat
- Start date
silverfish
Sprinkling glitter on turds
what was it a desert eagle .50 with depleted uranium rounds and a full magazine!!
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
a desert eagle .50 weighs 1998.6g with an empty magazine.
silverfish
Sprinkling glitter on turds
why, they thought he was armed and posed an immediate risk
how, they pointed a loaded made ready weapon at him and pulled the trigger
silverfish
Sprinkling glitter on turds
silverfish
Sprinkling glitter on turds
I haven't gone either way on that point, other than inferring that if they weren't so evasive, slippery and proactively defensive they may come out of situations like this a bit better
Did they lie, did they have differing perceptions of the same situation as each other, did their witness statements agree with every other witness?
If they lied and it has been proven, they need to go to jail.
If they all compared notes and got their stories straight you would expect their witness statements to be similar rather than contradictory.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you have a very simplistic understanding of lying. there's lying all together and singing from the same hymn sheet, which for obvious reasons is now rare. then there's lying to muddy the waters. and if there is lying in this case, it's here. the divergent accounts make it difficult to establish the truth and thus help support a verdict of lawful killing.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Maybe liars - based on experience of lying and getting caught lying - realise the importance of little differences in order to make their lies appear as non-lies.
leanderman
Street Party: July 2
If only life were so simple.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The cops did shoot dead an unarmed man. That bit is really quite simple. And they then lied about what happened in court. That has to be common ground here, surely.
leanderman
Street Party: July 2
It's a starting-point certainly.
It's important though
How can V53 have given such a detailed explanation of the gun in Mark Duggan's hand if it hadn't been there? The gun that 'caused' MD to get shot.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
he said what he should have seen instead of what he had in fact seen.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This is how they done it - he had an honest belief that he saw it. Whether he had or not is irrelevant. And a reason why we're spiraling to police being able to do what they want to who they want when they want.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
He described the gun as being in a sock with the barrel poking out of a hole at the end. This assertion is more than curious. If he had not in fact seen the gun as it was still in a shoebox, how did he know about the sock?
Mr.Bishie
pickled egg
Aye, that just about sums it up.
But to be able to describe it so well, on his 'lovely view' of it. It's not saying 'it looked like a gun', it's describing the gun and the sock.
The form itself (the determination and conc) uses a discourse which makes it impossible to say anything other than what they did say, imo. It confines, and entraps.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Doesn't matter, they have the defence of honest belief - how they can have a belief about something they couldn't have seen and how it fits with other copper explanations doesn't matter anymore. All that counts is saying in court that you had an honest belief. It's perfect. It's law around this boiled down to a great big fuck off.
silverfish
Sprinkling glitter on turds
Are you saying there is no position the copper can put forward other than "I saw a gun" because he opened fire theoretically because he "saw a gun"
what would the outcome be if the copper said, I thought I saw a gun and reacted and shot him, I made a mistake
If you weren't 100% sure he had a gun why did you shoot him?
The process paints the copper into a corner
leanderman
Street Party: July 2
It seems the verdict hinged on the copper convincing the jury of his good faith.
What, a corner that he's got into by conspiring with his fellow officers? Seems a bit self inflicted to me - he could have given an honest account rather than the mysteriously detailed description of a gun barrel clearly showing in sock and the subsequent shootout cobblers, a gun that proved invisible to all others present (and an item which flew unseen 20ft away)
Plausible?
Plausible?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Well, one of the issues with memories processed under trauma is that they're often very deeply imprinted - so deeply that stress can cause replay.
Of course, replay is contextual and a matter of perspective, but I wouldn't assume that reasonably-accurate memories are likely to be "more difficult" to achieve just because they're produced in "the heat of the moment"/under stress.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Nothing "probable" about it. They were put in a room together 3 days after Duggan's death, and given a full working day to write their statements/get their story straight/invent a narrative.
leanderman
Street Party: July 2
I'd do the same.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I don't doubt it for a second.
leanderman
Street Party: July 2
Is it not described as 3 to 6m? Which is not necessarily 20ft.
leanderman
Street Party: July 2
Is it illegal?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No, you have an honest belief that it's best for you to do this.
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