Charlie Hebdo's sister.
Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions
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Charlie Hebdo's sister.
mauvais
on reddit or something
Also on the flag subject, IME within France the flag can often be used to show solidarity amongst compatriots regardless of whether they're Muslim, black, immigrants, whatever, under the spirit of what the nation stands for in some people's views. We saw that after Charlie Hebdo. Not exclusive amongst countries either.
It doesn't feel like the English or British flag is often used the same way, far more often about a selective (i.e. racist) nationalist idea. Of course the French one gets used in the same way too, just look at the FN etc - just that it can be both.
So if you're projecting Anglo-centric ideas about nationhood and emblems, it might not always work. Just my experience, not particularly well versed in this by any means.
It doesn't feel like the English or British flag is often used the same way, far more often about a selective (i.e. racist) nationalist idea. Of course the French one gets used in the same way too, just look at the FN etc - just that it can be both.
So if you're projecting Anglo-centric ideas about nationhood and emblems, it might not always work. Just my experience, not particularly well versed in this by any means.
5t3IIa
Registered User
Facebook has a 'thing' they turn on when something hideous happens so you can mark yourself safe. They did it during Nepal earthquake. I have a link hang on.
Edit: #Paris: The power, the horror, and the distortions - BBC News
Fuck, now a TGV has derailed near Strasbourg
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mauvais
on reddit or something
Yep, heard of it, just never seen it before. I have no issue with it - I know some don't like it but I think it's a good way of quickly & passively flagging yourself/others and stopping people worrying, without having to go down a repetitive, self-indulgent route of 'hi guys, I'm fine'.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yep, meanings of flags are varied and contested.
Also, it is relevant, I think, in terms of how we think about different attacks, to consider the motivation of the attackers. Their motivation seems very clear - this wasn't an attack just on Paris or France, but on Europe as a whole. So the target is 'us' if we live here in Europe. Declaring solidarity the day after an attack with a group that was attacked because they are like us is hardly evil or reactionary, and certainly not necessarily racist.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yeah, and people do have irrational fears sometimes. We all do. If there's an attack like this in London, my mum will phone me up to see if I'm ok. I remember phoning my sister after the King's Cross fire to make sure she was alright.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
who is this "us" who does it include and exclude?
gosub
~#
I remember being worried about people after previous bomb attacks, but you don't ring cos they'd either have serious shit to deal with or your needlessly tieing up the phone network at a critical time. A Facebook 'I'm ok' is a sensible step forward
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Anyone who has ever been to a football match or a restaurant or a gig, for starters.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
and those that haven't or choose not to?
Am I having déjà vu or did precisely the same scenario play out after 9/11?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
My mum is going to france in two weeks, i rang her up this afternoon and told her to be careful
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That was just a 'for starters'. In IS eyes, it is simply everyone who lives here. That was the message of the attacks.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
is that the them or the us?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i was thinking of a different word, beginning gob and ending ite.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The 'us' includes you, as far as IS are concerned.
What is glib is to shout 'racist' or 'liberal' or anything else at the people choosing to show solidarity with France today.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
because you say so and western values must be defended?
mauvais
on reddit or something
I say this with my clueless tourist's rose tinted glasses on, but it also comes down to national identity and engagement in nationhood, which is drastically different between Britain and France.
British - at least, English - nationhood and the state is to me a mostly vague set of behaviours or characteristics, and a few commonalities, but not a lot more, in part due to the laissez-faire attitude to multiculturalism and life in general. If you did engage heavily in national identity it'd be a bit weird.
It feels like in France the state and national unity has a much stronger presence, is more coherent and easier as an idea to engage with. Not least because it's protectionist and doggedly secular, it is an actual, tangible, meaningful thing that impacts your life - to be French or part of France has definition beyond a place on a passport or a one off citizenship test. So again the idea of nationalism, if that loaded term is even the right word for what I'm getting at, is something not so easily interchanged back and forth over the Channel.
I envy it in some ways actually, although it's not my most well-formed of opinions.
2hats
Dust.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
simplistic rubbish. the attack clearly not on europe as a whole - doubt turks this side of istanbul feel it an attack on them, for instance. it is an attack not on europe as a whole but on parts of europe: and aimed to divide, not unite. it is a goad, to drive governments towards some policy options, and to push people away from their usual inclinations.
bimble
floofy
Here's a long thing by an ISIS propaganda writer explaining how an important part of their work is to 'eliminate the grey zone' , make sure everyone is forced to pick a side.
eg)"And thus, the time had come for another event – magnified by the presence of the Khilāfah on the global stage – to further bring division to the world and destroy the grayzone everywhere."
&
"Muslims in the crusader countries will find themselves driven to abandon their homes for a place to live in the Khilāfah, as the crusaders increase persecution against Muslims living in Western lands"
THE EXTINCTION OF THE GRAYZONE « ansarukhilafah
eg)"And thus, the time had come for another event – magnified by the presence of the Khilāfah on the global stage – to further bring division to the world and destroy the grayzone everywhere."
&
"Muslims in the crusader countries will find themselves driven to abandon their homes for a place to live in the Khilāfah, as the crusaders increase persecution against Muslims living in Western lands"
THE EXTINCTION OF THE GRAYZONE « ansarukhilafah
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joustmaster
offcumdun
what point are you trying to make?
you're coming across a bit of a cunt.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
why am i?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
even if they are liberal i suppose
joustmaster
offcumdun
because of the words you're typingwhy am i?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
What western values would those be? If you mean the freedom to attend a football match or go to a gig or eat out in a restaurant, then yes, absofuckinglutely these must be defended.
joustmaster
offcumdun
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