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Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

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Of course not though


Of course not though whether it was today, next year we have the whole thing arse about face. Good work? Make him a martyr it will all go away?

No. Make him a martyr and he'll go away. Make enough of them martyrs and the organisation of ISIS breaks down. The thing that makes a war against ISIS different to a fuzzily-defined 'war against terror' such as started by those idiots Blair and Bush, is that ISIS are an organisation that can clearly be targeted and weakened through military force. Terrorist attacks are of course made more likely in the short-run by engaging with ISIS, but in the long run we simply haven't got a choice if we want to beat them.

I was completely opposed to the invasion of Iraq and the war in Afghanistan for the very reason you cite - that invading those countries would increase the risk of terrorism. But terrorism isn't the only threat we face now; it is just a reality of war. The major threat we face now is the organisation of ISIS, and regardless of the reasons why ISIS exists (i.e. idiotic western foreign policy), the fact is that they do exist and have to be dealt with.
 
Possibly, but more probably like previous attacks it will be forgotten soon enough. 190 Died in Madrid in the 2004 train bombings, but it's not something we think about that much. And despite being around at the time of 7/7 I can't say that the fear of being blown up blights my journey to work every day. People outside the European bubble put up with far worse on a daily basis and still manage to carry on with their lives.

Yes but the Madrid train bombing was the result of an intervention which was massively unpopular with the Spanish people, and the PSOE government then withdrew from Iraq. Spain doesn't have anything approaching the intercommunal tensions that France does. I wish you were right but you aren't.
 

Fire is under control. No thanks to the fire brigade (who haven't yet turned up) thanks to the refugees, volunteers and national guard.

But lots of people who have lost everything all over again, in shock and in tears. And the weekend aid will not get through tomorrow- and the camp is utterly and completely reliant on food etc brought by ordinary people. So really bleak on many fronts for Calais.

But bleaker for all those people affected by events in Calais. Desperately sad news
 
What is the motivation for this?

Same as the hebdo attack I think but more so now with the amount of refugees in Europe. Turn more people agains muslims in France and Europe, isolate them further, drive them more into hands of daesh, more attacks, more curbing of democracy and so on. I see this as an attack on Europe as much as it is France.
 
Yes but the Madrid train bombing was the result of an intervention which was massively unpopular with the Spanish people, and the PSOE government then withdrew from Iraq. Spain doesn't have anything approaching the intercommunal tensions that France does. I wish you were right but you aren't.
Yes and no. Spain has its own tensions and its own problems. France may need to face up to itself. Does need to face up to itself, but it's too early to say what the effects of this will be. We can know what le Pen will want to make of it. But we can also know that many good French people will resist them.
 
This, and every attack like it, is all more evidence to fence sitters that a Europe of many peoples is impossible. The responses will produce the same effect.
 
Errrmm... being Islamists

No there has to be more to it. I don't mean any disrespect but there are nutters on both sides now and have been for years. Do ours know what they are doing? Legitimate grievences rather than sad wankers wanting to blow themselves up for 70 virgins narrative?
 
This, and every attack like it, is all more evidence to fence sitters that a Europe of many peoples is impossible. The responses will produce the same effect.

Again this is a discussion for another thread, but I think exactly the opposite of what you say is going to be the result of this sort of thing.
 
Again this is a discussion for another thread, but I think exactly the opposite of what you say is going to be the result of this sort of thing.
Go on, then, start a new thread about Schengen and European unity. Lots of people will pile in after tonight's dénouement, if it will ever dénouer.
 
No there has to be more to it. I don't mean any disrespect but there are nutters on both sides now and have been for years. Do ours know what they are doing? Legitimate grievences rather than sad wankers wanting to blow themselves up for 70 virgins narrative?
Probably not quite the time for this yet, but it's wrong-headed to think of suicide attacks in terms of 'nutters' or religion. They always have a political aim and a political motivation. They are rational from a particular point of view. That is how to understand them.

100 dead at least now. Fuck. :(
 
yeah its an age old guerilla tactic. Strategy of tension.

FWIW, the strategy of tension was different. It involved elements of the state using terrorism, to destabilise a social conflict and create a situation that could be militarised/repressed more easily. The bombing of the peace rally in Turkey, followed by statements that the attack could have been perpetrated by kurds, might have suggested a strategy of tension to some observers.
 
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