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Maccabi Tel Aviv incident, Amsterdam November 2024

hitmouse

hitmouse

so defeated, thinks it's funny
For those who've missed it, a few news stories giving different perspectives on what happened:

forward.com

'Antisemitic hit-and-run squads': Amsterdam temporarily bans demonstrations after Israeli soccer fans attacked by street mobs

Jewish fans have been attacked in Amsterdam in a "pogrom" after a soccer match between Maccabi Tel Aviv and Ajax.
forward.com forward.com

news.sky.com

What we know about violence involving football fans in Amsterdam

Verified footage shows how violent disorder unfolded in Amsterdam on Thursday. Before Maccabi Tel Aviv fans were attacked in the city on Thursday evening, Palestinian flags were pulled down from buildings.
news.sky.com news.sky.com

www.bbc.co.uk

Amsterdam mayor condemns 'hit and run' attacks on Israeli football supporters

Five people were taken to hospital after violence flared up when Israeli football club Maccabi Tel Aviv was in the city.
www.bbc.co.uk

www.aljazeera.com

Israeli football fans clash with protesters in Amsterdam

Amsterdam city council member says ‘Maccabi hooligans’ instigated violence and attacked Palestinian supporters.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com

www.middleeasteye.net

Israeli hooligans provoke clashes in Amsterdam after chanting anti-Palestinian slogans

Travelling fans verbally abuse locals and tear down Palestine flags before fights break out with Dutch youth
www.middleeasteye.net www.middleeasteye.net

Think it's pretty clear that the Geert Wilders/Netanyahu narrative of totally unprovoked attacks on poor innocent football fans is total bollocks, but suspect it's also pretty likely that the violence that followed, at least in some places, crossed the line from just hooligans getting a deserved kicking into attacks on random fans. But I wasn't there, and am open to learning more about it, I didn't know until today about Ajax being the Dutch Spurs equivalent for instance.
 
I mean, don't think that there's any doubt that the Maccabi ultras are a nasty lot, but not sure how much something that happened in Athens in March adds to our understanding of what happened this week?
 
It wasn't just wilders narrative, it was the Dutch pm, talking of shame of Netherlands, Hope Israel forgives ffs.
Footage I saw this morning was not just the tearing down of a Palestinian flag from a building, but chanting 'let the IDF fuck the arabs' in dam square, and on the escalator, part of a longer song, 'there ain't no schools in gaza, cos there ain't no children left '
Ajax has been, like tottenham, the recipient of anti semitic chants, and taken on the slur as a badge of honour overcthe years, the 'superjoden' but also like spurs 'yids' seem to bear no allegiance to the Israeli state. I'm not aware of any history of anti Jewish pogroms in Amsterdam, its known as a safe haven. But zionist chanting in Dam square, well u fuck around and find out, and they found out, certainly from Moroccan taxi drivers but probably form the ajax firm too. One of the passports confiscated was of Israeli military. Not so brave now, cry me a river.
There's also video footage of their fans disrupting the minutes silence for Spanish flood victims in the ground. But of course, this is all anti semitism, not anti scum behaviour.
 
Thanks, hitmouse for providing some balance in the media sources you've quoted.

There definitely appear to be two sides to this, and I'm annoyed with (but not surprised at) the BBC for such biased reporting. Perhaps more appropriate for the main Gaza thread, but I'm especially annoyed that this story was prioritised over the one about 70% of those killed in Gaza being women and children.

I wonder if more will come out about the timeline and how it started and escalated.

This is going to be an issue in international football from now on. Looks like Maccabi Tel Aviv's next game is against Turkish side Besiktas and will have to be played at a neutral venue.

miktheword while I agree with a lot of your post, Amsterdam hasn't always been a safe haven - historically the Jewish community there has been decimated.
 
miktheword said:
It wasn't just wilders narrative, it was the Dutch pm, talking of shame of Netherlands, Hope Israel forgives ffs.
Footage I saw this morning was not just the tearing down of a Palestinian flag from a building, but chanting 'let the IDF fuck the arabs' in dam square, and on the escalator, part of a longer song, 'there ain't no schools in gaza, cos there ain't no children left '
Ajax has been, like tottenham, the recipient of anti semitic chants, and taken on the slur as a badge of honour overcthe years, the 'superjoden' but also like spurs 'yids' seem to bear no allegiance to the Israeli state. I'm not aware of any history of anti Jewish pogroms in Amsterdam, its known as a safe haven. But zionist chanting in Dam square, well u fuck around and find out, and they found out, certainly from Moroccan taxi drivers but probably form the ajax firm too. One of the passports confiscated was of Israeli military. Not so brave now, cry me a river.
There's also video footage of their fans disrupting the minutes silence for Spanish flood victims in the ground. But of course, this is all anti semitism, not anti scum behaviour.
Click to expand...
Basically this. The reaction to the incident from the Dutch state, monarch, etc, is absurd.

Nasty fuckers got in a fight with some other nasty fuckers. This shouldn't even be international news.
 
oryx said:
Thanks, hitmouse for providing some balance in the media sources you've quoted.

There definitely appear to be two sides to this, and I'm annoyed with (but not surprised at) the BBC for such biased reporting. Perhaps more appropriate for the main Gaza thread, but I'm especially annoyed that this story was prioritised over the one about 70% of those killed in Gaza being women and children.

I wonder if more will come out about the timeline and how it started and escalated.

This is going to be an issue in international football from now on. Looks like Maccabi Tel Aviv's next game is against Turkish side Besiktas and will have to be played at a neutral venue.

miktheword while I agree with a lot of your post, Amsterdam hasn't always been a safe haven - historically the Jewish community there has been decimated.
Click to expand...
Ok but I didn't say it was 'always' a safe haven, I'm awake of WWII but on reading the Times of Israel, it does seem to be, historically and certainly compared to others even centuries ago. Mokum the old Yiddish word still exists as a nickname for the city
 
As hinted above, the long-running Feyenoord v Ajax rivalry has had antisemitic undertones for decades. I do wonder how much of a contributory factor that was in some of this.
 
miktheword said:
Ok but I didn't say it was 'always' a safe haven, I'm awake of WWII but on reading the Times of Israel, it does seem to be, historically and certainly compared to others even centuries ago. Mokum the old Yiddish word still exists as a nickname for the city
Click to expand...

It was a haven for Huguenots fleeing Catholic persecution during the counter reformation.
 
Seen this from Andy Fleming, which pretty much sums up where I'm at with it:
Meanwhile, there's free love In Amsterdam, but also pogroms and/or Maccabi fans FAFO -- they report, you decide. Ajax (5) def. Maccabi Tel Aviv (0) but beyond that, as best I can tell, a few thousand Maccabi ultras (Fanatics) travelled, got up to their usual antics, and were then turned upon by locals -- who, given the history and relations, are unlikely to have been Ajax hools, and more likely angry Arab yoof.

Unsurprisingly, the violent retaliation has been defined as constituting an antisemitic pogrom (see : The Media Can’t Figure Out Why Some Racist Israeli Soccer Hooligans Were Beaten Up, Billy Haisley, defector, November 8, 2024). But ignoring The Usual Suspects and their propaganda, it's difficult to know to what extent the provocations by the Maccabi ultras resulted in more widespread violence against Israeli fans generally, or to what extent it was animated by antisemitism: I don't speak Dutch, and I've not found any independent anti-fascist account of the events. On the face of it, however, it really does appear to be a case of FAFO.
Click to expand...

I suppose, trying to think of a less politically heated analogy, if Leeds were playing in another European city, and beforehand a bunch of Leeds hooligans acted like violent racist dicks, I wouldn't really shed any tears over them getting a kicking either, but if that then led to further attacks on random Leeds fans who hadn't been involved, I'd think that was a bad thing. So I'm interested in trying to get beyond the obvious propagandist narratives and trying to get a clearer sense of what actually happened.

Also I suppose this is a useful case study in that us on this thread are mostly very aware of one side of the story, and there's another narrative that has been spread very widely to a lot of people elsewhere - is it possible to have a productive conversation with people who are convinced that what happened in Amsterdam was just unprovoked antisemitic attacks and are unaware of the context? How and what does that look like, and so on.
 


Any away fans singing shit like this would expect consequences. Go to Manchester and sing about Munich, go to Liverpool and sing about Hillsborough. I mean, come on. Away trips to Europe can be dangerous especially if you act like a bunch of pricks.

"why are there no schools in gaza? Because there are no children left"
 
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"scarfers" get caught up in football violence all the time. That's bad, it needs to stop and in the UK it largely has, but I don't remember Bush condemning the West Ham vs Palermo violence in 2006.

BTW that reportedly started because West Ham fans were wearing "West Ham vs The Mafia" t-shirts and the locals took offence.
 
hitmouse said:
Seen this from Andy Fleming, which pretty much sums up where I'm at with it:


I suppose, trying to think of a less politically heated analogy, if Leeds were playing in another European city, and beforehand a bunch of Leeds hooligans acted like violent racist dicks, I wouldn't really shed any tears over them getting a kicking either, but if that then led to further attacks on random Leeds fans who hadn't been involved, I'd think that was a bad thing. So I'm interested in trying to get beyond the obvious propagandist narratives and trying to get a clearer sense of what actually happened.

Also I suppose this is a useful case study in that us on this thread are mostly very aware of one side of the story, and there's another narrative that has been spread very widely to a lot of people elsewhere - is it possible to have a productive conversation with people who are convinced that what happened in Amsterdam was just unprovoked antisemitic attacks and are unaware of the context? How and what does that look like, and so on.
Click to expand...
Firstly, thanks for clearing this sub-discussion out of the main thread; that was a good thing to do.
Secondly, the account you've linked to is a calm and useful summation of where, I think, many posters were after yesterday's sometimes hyperbolic arguments and framing.
Thirdly, my view is very much along the FAFO lines with the added caveat that, of course, any engagement by Israeli teams etc. is taking place in the context of that state conducting on-going war crimes and crimes against humanity. The state apparatus clearly does not privilege the safety of its citizens abroad when deciding to conduct these criminal acts. But neither should that give opponents of the regime the excuse to attack Israeli citizens. However, in the context of these Israelis glorifying and celebrating the actions of their state, the FAFO scenario seems about right.
Lastly, as alluded to above, some of the commentary on these events in Amsterdam was completely over the top and some of our mainstream politicians were so obviously keen to get their Islamophobic digs in straight away. It's worth noting that, having tried to cast these street fights as a pogrom, even the Netanyahu regime couldn't sustain the pretence to the point of sending in military aircraft to lift out the "victims of the pogrom". By the time that BS was fed to the news wires, the MTA fans were already safely on board their commercial return flights.

Will likely be quickly forgotten if the Israeli fans don't turn up in Istanbul, but we should definitely remember the UK politicians and commentators that were so ready to call this a pogrom and, in so doing, devalue such an important part of the lexicon of Jewish oppression.
 
100% behind miktheword . Fuck'em.

Maccabi's right wing ultras arrived Wednesday night and started their racist chanting and assaults which also included a taxi driver being dragged out of his car and beaten. I'm not one for condemning a whole clubs fanbase, however, the rabid nature of their ultras, the club's appalling record of racist behaviour ( covered by KIO Israel ) and the heightened anti-Arab nationalism in Israel must make it very difficult for any anti racists amongst their supporters to challenge such behaviour or even put their heads above the parapet. Let's be clear when Maccabi fans have travelled elsewhere they might have faced anti genocide protests or tifos/banners but generally, they haven't been attacked. In Amsterdam, it was they that started the attacking and not just opposition fans but specifically Arabs and not for the first time.

I don't think comparisons with English clubs are the same, FLAF got it right with their comparison "if Spartak Moscow fans came to town for a Europa League game chanting "f*ck Ukraine", attacking taxis and tearing down Ukranian flags from residents homes, only for some of them to then get a kicking?"

There was a lot of background noise and attempts at appearing to be even handed on the other thread which also included allegations of anti semitism. Most of this was from a poster pursuing old vendettas against one particular poster who clearly thought this was more important than the topic. In my view however tempting we shouldn't reward disruptive behaviour by engaging, losing the focus of the topic and making it all about that poster.
 
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hitmouse said:
is it possible to have a productive conversation with people who are convinced that what happened in Amsterdam was just unprovoked antisemitic attacks and are unaware of the context? How and what does that look like, and so on.
Click to expand...
It depends what people you're talking to.

People make sense of new events by relating them to things they already know about. Some people have understood events in Amsterdam by putting it in their mental box of 'antisemtic violence'. That's where much media coverage of it has placed it, and if people have just glanced at/overheard news headlines about it that's where they'll file it in their brain. But most people will also have a mental box of 'football hooliganism', which from what I've read is largely, but perhaps not entirely, where this belongs. With a few less widely reported facts about the behaviour of the Maccabi supporters it should be possible to encourage some people to think about which mental box this belongs in.

It'll then depend on that person's receptiveness to changing their mind about how to categorise this and how firmly they have already made up their minds, based on existing preconceived ideas, where their ideas about what happened ends up.
 
The39thStep said:
There was a lot of background noise and attempts at appearing to be even handed on the other thread which also included allegations of anti semitism. Most of this was from a poster pursuing old vendettas against one particular poster who clearly thought this was more important than the topic. In my view however tempting we shouldn't reward disruptive behaviour by engaging, losing the focus of the topic and making it all about that poster.
Click to expand...

Since you seem intent on mendaciously pursuing this across threads (and I'd have thought better of you, tbh) let's be clear on what was actually said.

My remarks regarding antisemitism were NOT directed at events in Amsterdam. They were specifically addressing posts on here by two posters in particular, that were for sure bigoted/antisemitic; and certainly one of those posters has a form sheet as long as a donkey's cock for antisemitic posting.

I couldn't really give a toss what happens to football hooligans, but I will comment on antisemitic postings, although I've now put that thread back on ignore as it's a cesspit of the worst excesses of extreme left-wing bigotry and misinformed propaganda, and makes me want to slap a few posters I otherwise like.
 
Spandex said:
It depends what people you're talking to.

People make sense of new events by relating them to things they already know about. Some people have understood events in Amsterdam by putting it in their mental box of 'antisemtic violence'. That's where much media coverage of it has placed it, and if people have just glanced at/overheard news headlines about it that's where they'll file it in their brain. But most people will also have a mental box of 'football hooliganism', which from what I've read is largely, but perhaps not entirely, where this belongs. With a few less widely reported facts about the behaviour of the Maccabi supporters it should be possible to encourage some people to think about which mental box this belongs in.

It'll then depend on that person's receptiveness to changing their mind about how to categorise this and how firmly they have already made up their minds, based on existing preconceived ideas, where their ideas about what happened ends up.
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Yeah - to fully put my cards on the table and explain why I'm interested in this, my initial reaction was basically "lol, fuck them", same as everyone else. Then I saw an American Jewish acquaintance (who does seem to be quite an emotionally disregulated person in general) getting really upset about this, having clearly understood it as going in the "antisemitic violence" box, and had to think quite carefully about how to explain it, cos apart from anything else I'm not sure how many Americans know enough about the rest of the world to have that box of "football hooliganism" in the first place, and also just because telling people who are scared and upset about racism "actually you don't need to be scared and upset right now" is always a difficult conversation to have.
 
The39thStep said:
100% behind miktheword . Fuck'em.

Maccabi's right wing ultras arrived Wednesday night and started their racist chanting and assaults which also included a taxi driver being dragged out of his car and beaten. I'm not one for condemning a whole clubs fanbase, however, the rabid nature of their ultras, the club's appalling record of racist behaviour ( covered by KIO Israel ) and the heightened anti-Arab nationalism in Israel must make it very difficult for any anti racists amongst their supporters to challenge such behaviour or even put their heads above the parapet.
Click to expand...
Do you have many links to the Kick It Out Israel stuff? Just thinking that in discussions with people from a more Zionist-leaning perspective, that would be really useful as a source that couldn't be easily dismissed. From a quick search I found this article about them facing charges from the Israeli Football Association for racist chanting against a Hapoel Haifa player, anything more recent than ten years ago would be good though.

New Israel Fund – Kick it Out Complaint Leads to Charges Against Racist Fans

newisraelfund.org.uk newisraelfund.org.uk
 
hitmouse said:
Do you have many links to the Kick It Out Israel stuff? Just thinking that in discussions with people from a more Zionist-leaning perspective, that would be really useful as a source that couldn't be easily dismissed. From a quick search I found this article about them facing charges from the Israeli Football Association for racist chanting against a Hapoel Haifa player, anything more recent than ten years ago would be good though.

New Israel Fund – Kick it Out Complaint Leads to Charges Against Racist Fans

newisraelfund.org.uk newisraelfund.org.uk
Click to expand...
I actually read the same site although I haven't looked to see if there is any download or pdf. I'll see if FLAF have got any links. This is from the end of last season https://www.nif.org/stories/shared-society-combating-racism/reporting-on-racism-in-soccer/
 
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