loyalist victim mentality: bizarre new twist
- Thread starter Idris2002
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Col_Buendia
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Ahhh, them were the days, none of this pussy-footing around Scottish golf courses!
I've still got me own personal rubber bullet!
But now that we've re-established diplomatic relations, what *was* yr point about the north? Or has the point been lost in the subsequent fizz of another cracked-open tinny?
I've still got me own personal rubber bullet!
But now that we've re-established diplomatic relations, what *was* yr point about the north? Or has the point been lost in the subsequent fizz of another cracked-open tinny?
Col_Buendia
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vimto said:
Well, I'm waiting for Butchers to explain why he should be shot, presumably. But, imo, if you judge him on a scale against nearly every other unionist politico that you will encounter in the media, he seems to be the only one talking anything resembling sense. I mean, anything resembling sense...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I had a gas thing, but i dumped it.
Nah, too drunk to make anything but protestations of exsaperation - you're surely not looking to me for an answer are you? Something about peace and love and forget history - Or EMBRACE THE DIVIDE. Dose othe dirthy bastards, hey you hear dis, it was recorded in de jail?.
Nah, too drunk to make anything but protestations of exsaperation - you're surely not looking to me for an answer are you? Something about peace and love and forget history - Or EMBRACE THE DIVIDE. Dose othe dirthy bastards, hey you hear dis, it was recorded in de jail?.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Hang on there, i only said hold your horses on endorsing him 100%. Amongst the politicians who've crawled out he's been the most honest and open - and appears to have the most progressive agnenda (as did SF for many years). He 's had to crawl back and accept what the gunmen have said each time though hasn't he? Looking for a leader from either side is worthless.Col_Buendia said:
Col_Buendia
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butchersapron said:
Aha. I suspected as much, but I didn't want to go flinging allegations around... as the man once said outside the (hated) Maryfield secretariat, "I deny the allegation and refute the alligator".
No, serious. That came out of the mouth of one of Paisley's mob, in front of a BBC crew as well!
But anyway, vimto, I'm not into electoral politics, so straight off I'm not a huge fan of that type of political actor, but setting my prejudices aside for a moment, Ervine seems to be saying (useful) things that others aren't. Tho I suspect that other posters closer to the ground in the north will be better able to paint a more detailed picture of his behaviour & motives.
Col_Buendia
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butchersapron said:
Ha-harrr... we've lured you into the debate!
yep, looking for a leader is worthless, but given that the political infrastructure doesn't allow for much else in the current circumstances, I'd rather have to put up with the likes of Ervine for the time being than most of the rest of the bunch.
What I don't know much about is how much he is free to speak his mind, and how much he needs to get the blessing of his own crowd of paras before he sits down in front of the cameras...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
How likely is it that Ervine and his politics are going to come put on top? Or even force the debate onto sensible grounds? It looks to me like they're getting kicked all over the shop and don't know how to respond politically. (Which they should have been doing decades before)
It's not so much looking for 'leaders' from each side though is it butchers. Surely it should be 'spokespersons' from each side to identify what the real issues facing us all truly are.butchersapron said:
The prods and the tims are fighting against each other over what? A scramble for social resources?
Col_Buendia
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No, I wouldn't want to see any "leader" come out on top, but my limited tolerance of Ervine is based on my understanding that what he says seems to be broadening the terms of the public debate in a way that no other unionists are doing at the moment.
The last thing I heard him say on the radio was an accusation of moral cowardice on the part of the unionist leadership for failing to engage with the republican movement as representatives of the people with whom the unionists have to share the isle with. Now, accepting that we're none too keen on the representatives as such, for as long as they are there in that role, then it would seem that the unionist leadership would be better off talking to them (and perhaps showing a degree of "leadership" to the unionist community?) than just sitting whinging to whoever the current NI secretary of state might be, waiting for London to sort their concerns out for them.
The last thing I heard him say on the radio was an accusation of moral cowardice on the part of the unionist leadership for failing to engage with the republican movement as representatives of the people with whom the unionists have to share the isle with. Now, accepting that we're none too keen on the representatives as such, for as long as they are there in that role, then it would seem that the unionist leadership would be better off talking to them (and perhaps showing a degree of "leadership" to the unionist community?) than just sitting whinging to whoever the current NI secretary of state might be, waiting for London to sort their concerns out for them.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Sounds good - the DUP are getting the votes though, for not doing what Ervine has advised.Col_Buendia said:
They/he could be on the way of he stickies, having the right positions but sweet fa in terms of influence.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Col_Buendia
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Yeah, but just while we're being pragmatic and not ideologues, there seems to be such a huge gap between the role of "representative" and "leader" in the north...
Ervine could potentially be someone who could "lead" (ugh!) the unionist community out of the fucking historical cul-de-sac that Paisley's "Lets stand outside the gates and throw snowballs" type of engagement has engineered.
Paisley, otoh, is happy to perpetuate a public debate that closes down other options (drowns out the Ervine-options with repeated dogma) and then sits back and announces that he is merely "representing" the wishes of the unionist community, despite having been responsible for formulating those very wishes.
Bugger, I'm not sure if I am making myself clear. But the mainstream is displaying a marked failure to offer any route out of the current situation... more of the same, dig yr heels in, no surrender etc etc etc. Even if we took the unionist victim-mentality at face value, that would surely mean that even for the Paisley constituency, the status-quo is not an option. So where is Paisley "leading" to? It is that absence of direction that I think Ervine just about manages to highlight, although we then move into a chicken-and-egg debate (like you pointed out) about why these ideas of his don't find a wider popular base...
Wish I knew.
Where's Idris?
Ervine could potentially be someone who could "lead" (ugh!) the unionist community out of the fucking historical cul-de-sac that Paisley's "Lets stand outside the gates and throw snowballs" type of engagement has engineered.
Paisley, otoh, is happy to perpetuate a public debate that closes down other options (drowns out the Ervine-options with repeated dogma) and then sits back and announces that he is merely "representing" the wishes of the unionist community, despite having been responsible for formulating those very wishes.
Bugger, I'm not sure if I am making myself clear. But the mainstream is displaying a marked failure to offer any route out of the current situation... more of the same, dig yr heels in, no surrender etc etc etc. Even if we took the unionist victim-mentality at face value, that would surely mean that even for the Paisley constituency, the status-quo is not an option. So where is Paisley "leading" to? It is that absence of direction that I think Ervine just about manages to highlight, although we then move into a chicken-and-egg debate (like you pointed out) about why these ideas of his don't find a wider popular base...
Wish I knew.
Where's Idris?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
In a monkey suit outside Queens? Is it friday or sat? I forget.
Col_Buendia
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butchersapron said:
The article seems spot on, although sadly dated - what happened to Billy Hutchinson, eh?
That's it in a nutshell... I was pleased to see w/c issues finally on the agenda, even while I would look to other forms of organising as a better solution in the longer term.
Well, it's been a pleasure to watch you sober up over the course of this thread
I'm off to bed.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I've had me supper now, i may be off again....
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Rascist!sihhi said:Are trying to challenge to James Joyce?
(Mate, i've got nightmare to get into my e-mail tommorow - i've got to go to another pc to do it, i think i got it though, i'll let you know)
Col_Buendia
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sihhi said:Are trying to challenge to James Joyce?
Silence, exile and cunning...?
I think Butcher's misses on at least 2 counts
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Only the first then.
(That was a joke for the cunning bit - i didn't think anyone would get it though)
(That was a joke for the cunning bit - i didn't think anyone would get it though)
cathal marcs
Well-Known Member
Col_Buendia said:
Wouldn't say Ulster Scotts is new the Yanks had been labeling them Scotch-Irish for 300 years.
revol68
what, fucking what?
aye, Ulster Scots has been around for years, but it is only recently it has been used towards political ends.
The irony of Ulster Scots has been long spoken in the Glens of Antrim, by prod and catholic alike, now of course they want to remove it from its organic existance, freeze it in history and market it. Bit like nationalists have been doing with gaelic for over a century.
The irony of Ulster Scots has been long spoken in the Glens of Antrim, by prod and catholic alike, now of course they want to remove it from its organic existance, freeze it in history and market it. Bit like nationalists have been doing with gaelic for over a century.
The idea that the PUP are progressive is something you hear from a lot of British lefties with no idea about what they're like on the ground. I could drag up all their far right/military links if we hadn't all heard it a million times before. What is worse is the complete absence of leadership from those who have set themselves up as representative of the loyalist working class towards recognising reality. Hence the w/c either turn, for want of any better analysis, to Paisley, or take part in some utterly nihilitic violence.
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