Looking after one's own: isn't than another way of saying something else?

[ViolentPanda]

Agreed. But the question is how? Should we say that people should be free to go where they like and take "their" money with them?
Or do we say that in a world so unequal there has to be controls and laws and taxation etc?

Again, are you talking about individuals or businesses?

 

[tbaldwin]

Again, are you talking about individuals or businesses?

Both.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'd hate for you to feel disappointed, so I'll deputise for balders.

"LIBERAL SUPREMACIST SNOB"

Well spotted!

 

[Fruitloop]

Maybe im just really thick. But that is what i thought a lot of people were arguing for.
I thought people were saying that it was good that people (labour) could freely move from one country to another.

Good for who?

 

[nino_savatte]

And supporting open borders or more liberal positions on migration, seems to be asking for more petrol to be poured on the fire.

Only if you think of it purely within the terms of the current capitalist system - which benefits no one but the oligarchs. I don't happen to subscribe to the free trade position, since it was the idea of free trade that also helped to foster the trade in African slaves. Therefore it stands to reason that the current capitalistic model is wholly responsible for the position of the exploitation of these Lithuanian workers. Change the system, get rid of the exploitation.

Fair trade, not free trade!

 

[tbaldwin]

Only if you think of it purely within the terms of the current capitalist system - which benefits no one but the oligarchs. I don't happen to subscribe to the free trade position, since it was the idea of free trade that also helped to foster the trade in African slaves. Therefore it stands to reason that the current capitalistic model is wholly responsible for the position of the exploitation of these Lithuanian workers. Change the system, get rid of the exploitation.

Fair trade, not free trade!

If you do agree that in terms of the current system it would be like pouring petrol on the fire,what are you arguing for?

Free movement of capital and labour under capitalism or only when its replaced?

 

[nino_savatte]

If you do agree that in terms of the current system it would be like pouring petrol on the fire,what are you arguing for?

Free movement of capital and labour under capitalism or only when its replaced?

You're not talking about a system though, are you? You're talking about an effect.

 

[tbaldwin]

You're not talking about a system though, are you? You're talking about an effect.

I'm talking about both.

 

[durruti02]

Depends on who they are.
Do you think it is - or ever was - a RIGHT for the West to plunder and secure the foreign resources needed to develop and afterwords maintain its economy and hence its "way of life"?

It isn't. Yet that is exactly what is done since centuries and is still going on, costing nundreds of thousands of lives and destabilising and shaking non Western societies on every level. The inequality you speak of largely is the result thereof (be it the short- or longterm.)

So if you want change, you first have to change the self-centered Western way of reasoning.
By the way: Although the extreme right in the West tries to portray it as such, migration isn't a unique hphenomenon of the current times, nor is it to the Wester societies as a whole. I suppose knowledge of human history isn't their strongest virtue.

salaam.

of course the inequality is a result of imperialism .. no argument ..

the question is is how does immigration today fit into both the neoliberlal startegy ( clearly it does) and how does it help or hinder w/c resistance to neo liberalism

immigration obviously is as old as humans .. but there are differrent forms .. what is happenning now is as the BBC described a 'new slavery'

 

[durruti02]

That without immigration we'd have a large net annual population deficit?

but vp its the same coin .. skilled people want to leave as they can't get work or get somewhere to live .. and the bosses bring in cheap labour .. neither things are good

 

[Fruitloop]

Good for who?

 

[durruti02]

One of the concliusions that can be drawn is that without immigration (that's legal and supposedly permanent immigration rather than EU "guestworkers spending a few years here) our population decline would already (at least according to the treasury) be causing a squeeze as the volume of the workforce lessens in relation to those calling on state resources, and hence harming "our own". One might draw a tentative conclusion that immigration in some ways actually assists "us" in "looking after our own".

yes there is an argument to what you say here .. but i do not think this is what is behind spivs bringing in labour is it? ..

i would not be opposed in any way if people voted to say give 100k or 250k 'green cards' for people who we all felt wanted to live and stay here and fitted your critiria .. but not now when there are millions out of work ..

p.s. actually the birth rate is going back up i believe .. mainly children of preious immigrants .. so i'm not sure is a big issue ..

 

[durruti02]

Yes.

There is a question mark as to whether, in the long term, the overseas worker phenomenon will demonstrate net benefits to the Philippines. I think it will. I think that the benefits already delivered outweigh any detriment and believe this will continue.

But the key issue for me is far simpler. The Philippines is an extremely poor country and just as I support the poor of China, I support the poor of the Philippines. These people live in desperate circumstances and they need jobs and money NOW. NOW!

Not tomorrow.

Not when their governments wake up and start working on their behalf (watch out for flying pigs, folks).

Not next week.

Not when all the (relatively VERY well off) workers in the UK have secured their jobs/futures and locked in future pay rises.

Not when we have a global socialist revolution.

But NOW!

And I will continue to support them until viable alternatives are made available.

I think you might call it "looking after ones own".



Woof

i understand where you are coming from BUT but what you are in favour of will only help a tiny tiny minority of the asian poor .. and at the same time it is helping the scum who run the world .. it is notgood for ALL of us ..

 

[durruti02]

I'm not for "free trade" at all, it doesn't work and it's a mechanism whereby wealthy countries get wealthier at the expense of everyone else.

Regulations on business, yes. Regulation on people...?

.

trade unions have ALWAYS belived in regulation of people .. the basis of ALL industrial people is getting people in unions and enforcinga closed shop and in dispute stopping people working .. of course voluntary .. but often actually having to picket etc

bosses have imported labour for over a century to break unions and disputes .. i do not call for the state take action as i do not belive it will take action on behalf of its enemy the w/c but we do need to deal with what thebosses are doing

 

[Knotted]

Lithuania is part of the EU, it's citizens have the right to work here. The fact that they've been duped is a matter for our and their legal authorities, and nothing to do with "flexible labour markets" (a phenomenon that's existed time out of mind).

Its difficult to say much about the shadowy world of gangmasters, but were the immigrants in report exceptions or the general rule as far as being duped is concerned?

I think you have it the wrong way round. Why is it easy to dupe migrants? I don't believe they are ignorant of what can happen, the point is that they will take the risk anyway and they will put up with the consequences because they see it as temporary.

And I'm afraid it is to do with flexible labour markets. The labour markets are made more flexible by open borders. Sorry, its simply true. It doesn't mean that all flexible labour markets have open borders or that countries with open borders necessarily have flexible labour markets, but its true nevertheless.

The following paper by Martin Ruhs, an Oxford academic deals with a variety of issues associated with this new type of immigration in this country. Its well worth reading:

Greasing the wheels of the flexible labour market: Eastern European labour immigration in the UK

You'd be better occupied bitching about the lack of law enforcement that allows this to happen, as the BBC journalist should have done, rather than arbitrarily ascribing the cause to a set of "newsworthy" issues.
Or even attacking the pissweak legislature that passed near-toothless anti-gangmaster legislation recently, so as not to upset its' supermarket-owning friends. After all, if there were properly enforced legislation, then the exploiters wouldn't so easily be able to exploit, would they?

Fuck the authorities. The left should be picketing these places. The SWP & the SP are always going on about how much resources and influence they have. Let's see it then.

 

[audiotech]

..actually the birth rate is going back up i believe .. mainly children of preious immigrants

...regulation of people

..will only help a tiny tiny minority of the asian poor

not now when there are millions out of work

And this is what you mean by "progressive and new"!

*shudders*

 

[Knotted]

And this is what you mean by "progressive and new"!

*shudders*

It seems old to you because you are still fighting Enoch.

 

[ViolentPanda]

but vp its the same coin .. skilled people want to leave as they can't get work or get somewhere to live ..

I'm well aware it's "the same coin". If you read the post you edited that quote from properly you'll have seen that I clearly differentiated between natural population decline and emigration, but mentioned them both.

and the bosses bring in cheap labour .. neither things are good

Not in all cases, no.
But if you're trying to say that it's never good then you're talking out of your arse.

 

[ViolentPanda]

yes there is an argument to what you say here .. but i do not think this is what is behind spivs bringing in labour is it? ..

As I wasn't addressing any point to do with "spivs" your point is specious.

i would not be opposed in any way if people voted to say give 100k or 250k 'green cards' for people who we all felt wanted to live and stay here and fitted your critiria .. but not now when there are millions out of work ..

Mmmm, according to the ILS the figure is less than a million, or are you one of those nice people who believe all us crips should be herded behind the burger counter? If not your claim of "millions is, like your previous point, specious.

p.s. actually the birth rate is going back up i believe .. mainly children of preious immigrants .. so i'm not sure is a big issue ..

Go to the ONS site, actually look up the annual returns from the registry of Births, Marriages and Deaths. Yes the figure is going up. A fraction. The "problem" being that the "immigrants with large families" phenomenon tends to only last a single generation, which means that to actually derive any lasting benefit from it you'd have to...you guessed it...have a constant influx of new immigrants!!

 

[ViolentPanda]

trade unions have ALWAYS belived in regulation of people .. the basis of ALL industrial people is getting people in unions and enforcinga closed shop and in dispute stopping people working .. of course voluntary .. but often actually having to picket etc

For fuck's sake. That's the worst piece of pie-eyed dogshit I've seen in a long while. Trade unions have always believed in a closed shop, that doesn't mean they believe in regulating them you plum, it means they believe in regularising them, getting them all singing from the same hymnsheet, so to speak.

bosses have imported labour for over a century to break unions and disputes .. i do not call for the state take action as i do not belive it will take action on behalf of its enemy the w/c but we do need to deal with what thebosses are doing

Bosses have imported labour for nearly a thousand years, not a hundred. Bill the Bastard shipped weavers over from the Low Countries to do a cheaper and better job than the natives.
As for your assertion that "i do not call for the state take action as i do not belive it will take action on behalf of its enemy the w/c", that makes you part of the problem, not the cure doesn't it? If you're not prepared to assert your own right to equal treatment under the law then of course you're going to get buttfucked, you're literally inviting it by saying "don't worry bosses, I'm not going to peach on you, because the coppers are in your pockets". I'm surprised you don't doff your cap too, you pilchard.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Its difficult to say much about the shadowy world of gangmasters, but were the immigrants in report exceptions or the general rule as far as being duped is concerned?

I think you have it the wrong way round. Why is it easy to dupe migrants? I don't believe they are ignorant of what can happen, the point is that they will take the risk anyway and they will put up with the consequences because they see it as temporary.

We're not talking about "migrants", we're talking about (for want of a better phrase) "guestworkers", people who are entitled under law to certain standards of pay and treatment, "risk" and "consequences" don't factor into the equation in the way they do with illegal labour.

And I'm afraid it is to do with flexible labour markets. The labour markets are made more flexible by open borders. Sorry, its simply true. It doesn't mean that all flexible labour markets have open borders or that countries with open borders necessarily have flexible labour markets, but its true nevertheless.

The following paper by Martin Ruhs, an Oxford academic deals with a variety of issues associated with this new type of immigration in this country. Its well worth reading:

Greasing the wheels of the flexible labour market: Eastern European labour immigration in the UK

I'll give it a read tomorrow.

Fuck the authorities. The left should be picketing these places. The SWP & the SP are always going on about how much resources and influence they have. Let's see it then.

The SWP aren't "the left", they're a bunch of reactionary pseudo-trot power-seekers, and the SP, for all their good intentions and hard work, are a tiny group with little influence.
As for the broad left, there isn't one with a solid organisational base any more, the Labour party have made sure of that with 20-odd years of rendering activism "beyond the pale" for their members.

"Fuck the authorities" might be (in fact is) a nice statement, but the truth is that if people don't assert their rights under law then those rights wither.

 

[Knotted]

We're not talking about "migrants", we're talking about (for want of a better phrase) "guestworkers", people who are entitled under law to certain standards of pay and treatment, "risk" and "consequences" don't factor into the equation in the way they do with illegal labour.

I'll give it a read tomorrow.

The SWP aren't "the left", they're a bunch of reactionary pseudo-trot power-seekers, and the SP, for all their good intentions and hard work, are a tiny group with little influence.
As for the broad left, there isn't one with a solid organisational base any more, the Labour party have made sure of that with 20-odd years of rendering activism "beyond the pale" for their members.

"Fuck the authorities" might be (in fact is) a nice statement, but the truth is that if people don't assert their rights under law then those rights wither.

As hard as I try, I can't find anything to disagree with here.

ETA: Incidently, I think you will find the paper interesting, despite what it looks like I haven't picked it out to prove any particular point, its just the best/most up to date research I have found.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm talking about both.

In your own dreams maybe but not on here, sunshine.

 

[ViolentPanda]

As hard as I try, I can't find anything to disagree with here.

Sorry about that, I'll try to be a tad more contrarian!

ETA: Incidently, I think you will find the paper interesting, despite what it looks like I haven't picked it out to prove any particular point, its just the best/most up to date research I have found.

No worries, I don't tend to suspect people of proferring "loaded" research unless it has the imprimatur of an "interest group" on it.

 

[nino_savatte]

of course the inequality is a result of imperialism .. no argument ..

the question is is how does immigration today fit into both the neoliberlal startegy ( clearly it does) and how does it help or hinder w/c resistance to neo liberalism

immigration obviously is as old as humans .. but there are differrent forms .. what is happenning now is as the BBC described a 'new slavery'

It's nothing new and all throughout history there have been backlashes against immigrants: they are a convenient scapegoats.

But different "forms of immigration"? Surely you mean "different reasons"? There are many reasons why people emigrate from this country...perhaps you should have a look at the "500 Britons leave per day" thread but I know you won't.

 

[becky p]

It's nothing new and all throughout history there have been backlashes against immigrants: they are a convenient scapegoats.

But different "forms of immigration"? Surely you mean "different reasons"? There are many reasons why people emigrate from this country...perhaps you should have a look at the "500 Britons leave per day" thread but I know you won't.

One in seven children in this countries primary schools do not speak english as their first language. Many parents and teachers are voicing concern about this. How would you answer those concerns?

 

[audiotech]

It seems old to you because you are still fighting Enoch.

To think, thirty years on from the demise of the NF I see the same "Enoch was right" fuckwits - this time in crap suits.

I also see the same ultra-left, empty rhetoric being tossed around, with it's adherents caught in headlights, paralysed like scared rabbits.

Bright eyes..........................................................................................

 

[audiotech]

One in seven children in this countries primary schools do not speak english as their first language. Many parents and teachers are voicing concern about this. How would you answer those concerns?

Set a target so everyone is to be bilingual by *insert year*.

 

[Knotted]

To think, thirty years on from the demise of the NF I see the same "Enoch was right" fuckwits - this time in crap suits.

I also see the same ultra-left, empty rhetoric being tossed around, with it's adherents caught in headlights, paralysed like scared rabbits.

Bright eyes..........................................................................................

There's a great deal of difference. The 'immigration' that we are talking about today is mainly 'white'. Its not really immigration in that for many its not about settling in the country. Its taking place alongside globalisation. The problems being raised on here are not to do with racial integration or the clash of civilizations (what was Enoch's term again?). What we are seeing today is part of a global trend effecting lots of countries in different ways, its not a peculiar 'British' thing.

 

[audiotech]

There's a great deal of difference. The 'immigration' that we are talking about today is mainly 'white'. Its not really immigration in that for many its not about settling in the country. Its taking place alongside globalisation. The problems being raised on here are not to do with racial integration or the clash of civilizations (what was Enoch's term again?). What we are seeing today is part of a global trend effecting lots of countries in different ways, its not a peculiar 'British' thing.

According to Blair and Bush, in their messianic view of the world, 'a clash of civilizations' is indeed what is. Also, a there has been a continual drip, drip from all quarters regarding integration - the issue about women wearing a veil being one example.

Immigration maybe mainly white, but it's the visible presence of people of colour that really irks some. Anyway, xenophobia and the hostility it provokes can be equally nasty and destructive.

I see the global picture and the globalisation of the working class is one I welcome.