London bomber called accomplices

[Jangla]

It would make no sense to detonate all bombs in the tube system - very little for the media to photograph so less of an impact. The second bomb attmepts reflected this - 3 in the tube for maximum collateral damage (due to the more damaging nature of an explosion in a confined space) and one up top for the front pages of the papers.

Interesting that some people are claiming the calls were 'panicky' - how do they know? All they actually know is that three calls were made. Imo, it's more likely that he was the mastermind (or at the least, the cell team lead) and was checking to make sure they'd not re-emerged from the tube having chickened out before detonating the last device.

 

[editor]

oi! why haven't you respinded to any of the points in reply to you n the Gate Gourmet & Racism thread?

Possibly because you're blatantly a racist idiot who should fuck off?

This is way, way out of order.

Please keep your disagreements about completely unrelated topics in the appropriate thread please.

I'm trying really, really hard to keep a thread on a very important subject from being dragged into the bin.

If you posters want a sensible discussion on the issues, you're going to have to stop fucking about.

Fair enough?

 

[belboid]

It would make no sense to detonate all bombs in the tube system - very little for the media to photograph so less of an impact. The second bomb attmepts reflected this - 3 in the tube for maximum collateral damage (due to the more damaging nature of an explosion in a confined space) and one up top for the front pages of the papers.

rubbish.

It makes a vast amount of sense as the enclosed space vastly increases the effectiveness of the act. Thats a far bigger impact than getting a photo of a blown up bus on the front page of some papers. The second bomobs were simply re-creating what happened with the first bombings.

 

[belboid]

This is way, way out of order.

Please keep your disagreements about completely unrelated topics in the appropriate thread please.

I'm trying really, really hard to keep a thread on a very important subject from being dragged into the bin.

If you posters want a sensible discussion on the issues, you're going to have to stop fucking about.

Fair enough?

fair enough, sorry.

 

[BarryB]

It would make no sense to detonate all bombs in the tube system - very little for the media to photograph so less of an impact. The second bomb attmepts reflected this - 3 in the tube for maximum collateral damage (due to the more damaging nature of an explosion in a confined space) and one up top for the front pages of the papers.

Interesting that some people are claiming the calls were 'panicky' - how do they know? All they actually know is that three calls were made. Imo, it's more likely that he was the mastermind (or at the least, the cell team lead) and was checking to make sure they'd not re-emerged from the tube having chickened out before detonating the last device.

I was under the impression that the bus bomber was the last person to join the team. If so he couldent have been the mastrermind or whatever.

BarryB

 

[Jangla]

rubbish.

It makes a vast amount of sense as the enclosed space vastly increases the effectiveness of the act. Thats a far bigger impact than getting a photo of a blown up bus on the front page of some papers. The second bomobs were simply re-creating what happened with the first bombings.

Did you read my post at all? 3 bombs in the tube for maximum carnage - one up top for media impact. 2nd bombings reflecting this. Remember you're talking about an organisation that feeds on fear - the best way of achieving this is by making sure it gets the best media coverage possible. Considering it took the US 'intelligence' agencies leaking the pics to ABC before you saw anything of the tube bombs, the 'shock' impact of having them all in the tube would have been massively reduced.

 

[Jangla]

I was under the impression that the bus bomber was the last person to join the team. If so he couldent have been the mastrermind or whatever.

BarryB

Not seen any report that claims to be able to tell in what order the bombers were recruited - can you post a link?

 

[belboid]

no, I dont buy it. All you get with the bus bomb was a picture of a blown up bus - they are not going to show the actual carnage are they?

 

[districtline]

I was under the impression that the bus bomber was the last person to join the team. If so he couldent have been the mastrermind or whatever.

BarryB

he was also the youngest of them, 18, and it makes no sense to have him masterminding the group, especially when the older ones (as the one who was 30) seemed to be more convinced of the cause.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Did you read my post at all? 3 bombs in the tube for maximum carnage - one up top for media impact. 2nd bombings reflecting this. Remember you're talking about an organisation that feeds on fear - the best way of achieving this is by making sure it gets the best media coverage possible. Considering it took the US 'intelligence' agencies leaking the pics to ABC before you saw anything of the tube bombs, the 'shock' impact of having them all in the tube would have been massively reduced.

I read your post, and i'd say you're wrong, the three bombs aren't independant variables, if you use three bombs you can shut down three tube lines, the rest of the network will take some of the excess. If you use four bombs then not only is there four less lines running through central london, but you've reduced the remaining network which will be more limmited and unable to carry the excess.

The bus and press related to it is more likely to be an unintended benifit to the bombers.

 

[Clintons Cat]

Did you read my post at all? 3 bombs in the tube for maximum carnage - one up top for media impact. 2nd bombings reflecting this. Remember you're talking about an organisation that feeds on fear - the best way of achieving this is by making sure it gets the best media coverage possible. Considering it took the US 'intelligence' agencies leaking the pics to ABC before you saw anything of the tube bombs, the 'shock' impact of having them all in the tube would have been massively reduced.

thats my 1st take,three co-ordinated,fourth to cause most disruption to the emergency response.His eratic behaviour could be down to self doubt,being the last to detonate he would have been the longest out of contact with the cell,hence his anxiety and uncertainty.

alternativly he may well have bottled it,then realising he was the only one not to go through with it,gone ahead,i don't know if there is any peer-review papers on this type of behaviour concerning more traditional forms of suicide pacts.i.e the fact that some have gone ahead,reinforces the resolve of those that initially waverred.

but i think seriously,that trying to second guess the mind of a suicide bomber can be a bit like staring into the abyss.

 

[Jangla]

no, I dont buy it. All you get with the bus bomb was a picture of a blown up bus - they are not going to show the actual carnage are they?

And if they were all in the tube you'd have nothing for the papers to splash over the front page.

Bob_the_lost - agree that there would be more tube lines out of action but if the section of the Northern Line was in fact open (as at least one article has claimed), why change your mind and get on a bus? Unless you were bottling out of course, which would imply the detonation of the final device (on a bus or ortherwise) was an accident..or rather, not intended.
If he was bottling out, you would have to assume that getting on the bus was an attempt to travel back to somewhere - but where? Is it possible to predict his likely journey given the bus route and the location of any known safe houses or routes of of London? At least then it might be possible to cast doubt (or indeed re-inforce) the theory that the bus detonation was not meant to happen above ground.

 

[laptop]

Among all this theorising it may be necessary to remember that no-one, not even the driver, knew precisely where that bus was going. The driver was trying to find a way around the cordons at King's Cross and Russell Square, but didn't know where they were...

 

[Jangla]

Among all this theorising it may be necessary to remember that no-one, not even the driver, knew precisely where that bus was going. The driver was trying to find a way around the cordons at King's Cross and Russell Square, but didn't know where they were...

True but the bomber would have likely assumed it would take it's normal route.

 

[scalyboy]

The Times online is reporting the supposed content of Hasib Hussein's final phone calls:

"Hussain is believed to have first called Mohammad Sidique Khan, 30, the alleged leader of the group, saying: “I can’t get on a train. What should I do ?” Then in quick succession he left the same message for Shehzad Tanweer and Jermaine Lindsay as, clearly agitated about his next move, he hurried away from the station.

A police source who has heard the telephone calls said: “His voice was getting more and more frantic with each call.” Investigators could tell from his breathless voice that Hussain was walking fast as he made these calls."

Times online article here

Surely this is incorrect? How can a 'police source' have heard the calls? Or are all mobile phone conversations recorded now? Sounds unlikely to me. I can see that they would be able to trace which phone numbers were dialled, together with times and locations of calls. But actual content? I doubt it. (willing to be corrected by someone with knowledge of this field...)

 

[Pickman's model]

The Times online is reporting the supposed content of Hasib Hussein's final phone calls:

"Hussain is believed to have first called Mohammad Sidique Khan, 30, the alleged leader of the group, saying: “I can’t get on a train. What should I do ?” Then in quick succession he left the same message for Shehzad Tanweer and Jermaine Lindsay as, clearly agitated about his next move, he hurried away from the station.

A police source who has heard the telephone calls said: “His voice was getting more and more frantic with each call.” Investigators could tell from his breathless voice that Hussain was walking fast as he made these calls."

Times online article here

Surely this is incorrect? How can a 'police source' have heard the calls? Or are all mobile phone conversations recorded now? Sounds unlikely to me. I can see that they would be able to trace which phone numbers were dialled, together with times and locations of calls. But actual content? I doubt it. (willing to be corrected by someone with knowledge of this field...)

a couple of points:

i don't know exactly what happens to calls made to a blown-up phone. presumably the cops in some foul way were able to find an undamaged sim card belonging to the bombers and were able to access the messages from that. or they got the calls from gchq or the yankee nsa.

but i suspect that it's all bollocks and that the police haven't access to any recordings, though they may have been made.

it seems to have achieved the objective i imagined the cops wanted, which was to knock their murder of de menezes off the front page.

 

[editor]

Surely this is incorrect? How can a 'police source' have heard the calls? Or are all mobile phone conversations recorded now?

Maybe he'd left recorded messages which I imagine would easily be accessible to the telecoms companies.

 

[scalyboy]

Maybe he'd left recorded messages which I imagine would easily be accessible to the telecoms companies.

Good call Ed. I didn't think of that. If they weren't answering (due to having just detonated their bombs, the tossers), then their phones would go into 'voice mail' mode...

[please excuse my with 'thinking out loud', I'm not that well up on mobiles. Do own one, but rarely use it, in fact its usually switched off, to the bafflement and frustration of friends and partner]

 

[JoeBlack]

Then in quick succession he left the same message for Shehzad Tanweer and Jermaine Lindsay [/URL]

Surely this is incorrect? How can a 'police source' have heard the calls? Or are all mobile phone conversations recorded now?

From the bit in bold it sounds like he didn't get through and so left a message. As the other guys had probably already blown themselves up they were in no position to retreive the messages but obviouly once the police knew what their mobile numbers were they would have checked to see what messages were on their accounts. The messages would be on the accounts not on the mobiles themselves.

 

[Pickman's model]

From the bit in bold it sounds like he didn't get through and so left a message. As the other guys had probably already blown themselves up they were in no position to retreive the messages but obviouly once the police knew what their mobile numbers were they would have checked to see what messages were on their accounts. The messages would be on the accounts not on the mobiles themselves.

how long would such messages last, though?

don't they generally disappear after a few days? & there is no way they'd have found the fucking sim card between king's x & russell sq in the first day or two.

 

[jæd]

how long would such messages last, though?

don't they generally disappear after a few days? & there is no way they'd have found the fucking sim card between king's x & russell sq in the first day or two.

I'd imagine they were looking for all calls made from certain mobile phone cells in a certain time period. Then run through who those calls were put through to. After while you would have a telephone number. Sim cards are just for the customers convienience.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'd imagine they were looking for all calls made from certain mobile phone cells in a certain time period. Then run through who those calls were put through to.

iirc it took them some time to find out who these people were, & then it would have taken some more time to find out their mobile numbers.

were i a suicide bomber, i'd make fucking sure that any mobile i had with me had never been used before so that the bloody thing was 'clean'.

the more that comes out the more i feel confirmed in my earlier assessment that the people who attacked the tube & bus network in july were a bunch of amateurs who had scant idea what they were up to & had given the task only a little consideration, which is good.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'd imagine they were looking for all calls made from certain mobile phone cells in a certain time period. Then run through who those calls were put through to. After while you would have a telephone number. Sim cards are just for the customers convienience.

how'd you use a mobile without one?

 

[JoeBlack]

how long would such messages last, though?

don't they generally disappear after a few days? & there is no way they'd have found the fucking sim card between king's x & russell sq in the first day or two.

Don't know about British mobiles but my Irish one seems to hold them for 2 weeks even after I've listened to them if I don't delete them myself. These guys may not have been that smart with the mobiles (i.e. by buying pay-as-you-go anon. that morning) so if any of them had been already been used to contact the others then once the cops worked out who one of them was and got their mobile they'd have been able to get records of everyone else they had phoned and so get the numbers for the others. All that could have happened within 24 hours and certainly within a couple of weeks.

To be honest the cops would have been horrifically incompetant if they failed to do all this once anyone was IDed - or even before so. Once they had the idea that it might be suicide bombers they were probably rushing all sim cards found to a phone to listen to whatever messages were there.

Also worth noting if the guys were not smart with the mobiles then once they knew the numbers and put pressure on the companies to put in the time they'd have had a pretty good idea of the exact movements of all four guys in the days and weeks beforehand. AFAIK the companies retain the tracking info required to provide continuous signals to phones for quite some time even if it takes work and time to extract this info for any one phone.

 

[editor]

how long would such messages last, though?

don't they generally disappear after a few days? & there is no way they'd have found the fucking sim card between king's x & russell sq in the first day or two.

Voice mails aren't stored on sim cards.

They're stored at the telecom company.

 

[Pickman's model]

Voice mails aren't stored on sim cards.

They're stored at the telecom company.

& for how long?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

& for how long?

Presumably untill you delete them, anything else would be very dodgy legaly.

*waits for laptop*

 

[editor]

No idea exactly what data is stored, but ...

A UK-speaker added that of the 4 mobile telephone companies 1 only stored customer-data for 6 months, while the others maintained the data for 12 months. There was never any complaint raised by law enforcement authorities, and in practice more than 80% of the demands for the other 3 companies concerned data younger than 6 months.
http://www.edri.org/issues/privacy/dataretention?from=50

Of course, the bombers wouldn't have deleted their own messages since they'd already sprung this mortal coil...

 

[Pickman's model]

Presumably untill you delete them, anything else would be very dodgy legaly.

*waits for laptop*

of course dead people rarely delete their voicemail!

 

[laptop]

Presumably untill you delete them, anything else would be very dodgy legaly.

*waits for laptop*

* FX: clumping footsteps approaching; cellar door *

I confess I've never read the small print on a mobile agreement

As far as I know, it's only legal to keep copies of conversations or of voicemail (in the absence of unread small print) under a specific warrant under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 and preceding laws. And that wouldn't apply to these "clean skin" bombers.

I have a vague recollection of reports - probably in respect of a missing or runaway young person - from which I deduced that text messages may be retrievable from the system.

Anyway, leaving aside the strong supposition in the stories - did the bus bomber go into a panic or into McDonald's? - the reported facts would depend on no more than who-called-who records, which are of course kept for billing purposes and the retention of which after a bill is sent is allowed, and may be required, under RIPA.

Obtain the phone number of one of the four - for example from a surviving SIM card at the scene - and they can establish the others (if necessary by visiting every identifiable person the first person called until they've run out of people to rule out of their inquiries).

* FX: cellar door, clumping footsteps receding *