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London 20th- anyone going?

I missed this coz I was out burying my grandma, was it as big as the March 26th one? Seems like there was a lot less aggro.

Also, y'know all these workfare direct action protests that go on, usually on Oxford St, after the march? Wouldn't it be an idea for some of the smaller direct action orientated groups to try and spread out these activities accross the capital, not just in the same place as always where the police are expecting you? Stretch police numbers and stuff.
 
Sorry to hear that Delroy.

I couldn't get a handle on the numbers but the BBCs statement of "tens of thousands" is fucking dark and misrepresentative.

I may be tired and have the shits from eating the Hare Krishnas curry so, I may change my mind in the morning but... What a waste of time. We're fucked. Pathetic. Even the bits that are meant to be more gnarly were fluffy as fuck.

Quite sad really. All rather passive and dumb.
 
Have to say it was all depressingly underwhelming from what I saw (which was, admittedly, only the end of the march). :(
 
Sorry about your grandma, Delroy.

The DPAC direct action was carried out concurrently with the march. The Workfare direct action was after the march had got to a certain point - Traf Sq. The trade unionists carried on to Hyde Park and their rally, whilst the SF broke away for Workfare (and some tax avoidance).
 
I cheated and only did half the march (joining in at trafalgar square) Very subdued and quiet. Was outside the pub (Quebec) when lots of people dressed in dark attire legged it down oxford street followed by lots of people in bright yellow attire. Next time, if blacbloc could have a mini soundsystem with some benny hill tunes on the go, that would be perfect.
 
It was always going to be smaller then March 26th because of Unison putting the boot into the union movement and the anti cuts movement following their shameful and idiotic* u turn in the pensions dispute.

With this in mind in excess of 100,000 (police and sky news figures, fuck you, craven BBC) was a good turnout and more then I and many other activists expected, and hopefully this will go some way to rebuilding the momentum that Unison trashed, which I believe will gather pace again, purely because the government intend to impose far more cuts then what's already come.

*I guess it's only idiotic if you think their role is to defend their members, the services their members provide, and to help the 99% in society generally. If all they are is a method of getting money and votes for Labour, which is entirely possible, then it's not so idiotic.
 
Fozzie Bear said:
Made it to halfway down Piccadilly before the rest of the family mutinied and whisked me to the pub and shopping.

Saw the black bloc crossing regent street.

Slightly lower turnout but better organised so no 2 hour standstill on Embankment like last year.

Bumped into a couple of people. It was pretty good as these things go.
Click to expand...

yeah terrible them bloody families, always dragging us off to the pub when there's work to be done!
 
grogwilton said:
It was always going to be smaller then March 26th because of Unison putting the boot into the union movement and the anti cuts movement following their shameful and idiotic* u turn in the pensions dispute.

With this in mind in excess of 100,000 (police and sky news figures, fuck you, craven BBC) was a good turnout and more then I and many other activists expected, and hopefully this will go some way to rebuilding the momentum that Unison trashed, which I believe will gather pace again, purely because the government intend to impose far more cuts then what's already come.

*I guess it's only idiotic if you think their role is to defend their members, the services their members provide, and to help the 99% in society generally. If all they are is a method of getting money and votes for Labour, which is entirely possible, then it's not so idiotic.
Click to expand...
I am interested - what do you think Unison should have done in the pensions dispute, which they had not already done?
 
I am not in LGPS but unison asked those of us in SAUL after much wrangling to accept an agreement which now intiated a two tier pension scheme for final payment and CARE. Dividing the workforce over two schemes now means both are massively vulnerable to further changes, without the support of each other.
 
xes said:
anyone lining themselves up for a kicking on the 5th? :D
Click to expand...

Hell yes! I couldn't make it to yesterday so I'll be going down on the 5th, sounds like the police were mostly reasonable yesterday, I imagine they'll be back to their usual brutal selves for the students and I don't have any bruises on my body right now ;)
 
I got told off in an anti-cuts meeting for saying this march was a bad idea and saying it would be better if everyone stayed in the town or borough they were in and organised a local protest at the same time.
It was exactly identical to March 26, in terms of route and content - large march of protestors followed by by being lectured at in Hyde Park. It was the same as March 26, why would those bored or frustrated the last time, who saw that the cuts weren't mitigated much less stopped, go again to do the same thing.

It's exactly the same as the Feb 15 2003 major anti-war rally followed by a series of similar rallies in March and April 2003, doing exactly the same thing. There's nothing no plan for a sit-down protest. No plan for encouraging anything even remotely different. Always central London where the only people to see you are tourists or rich people, never a suburb. It's sort of meant to be against the government but the government are never even touched.

Those who supported the idea on the left seem to come from a totally crazy idea where the only workfare targets are in central London.

Regardless of boos at Ed M, the voices of ordinary people have again been drowned out by Labour pseudo-nonsense in general - they have been interviewed on the radio.
 
Delroy Booth said:
I missed this coz I was out burying my grandma, was it as big as the March 26th one? Seems like there was a lot less aggro.

Also, y'know all these workfare direct action protests that go on, usually on Oxford St, after the march? Wouldn't it be an idea for some of the smaller direct action orientated groups to try and spread out these activities accross the capital, not just in the same place as always where the police are expecting you? Stretch police numbers and stuff.
Click to expand...

We chatted about suggesting this to BW instead of a central action but decided that we'd rather have something central for a few reasons:

1) the additional cost for anyone to travel away from the march which might stop claimants joining
2) the logistical issues of people from outside London knowing where to go / how to get there (not a big problem obviously but again could/would put people off going, especially if they were concerned about timings and getting back onto union coaches)
3) When we have national days of action we do this kind of thing already and it's great to go to a larger direct action thing, one with hundreds or low thousands of people, rather than tens of people. This was the main reason we didn't propose it to BW in the end - we decided that we'd rather take part in a bigger central action than one of a number of smaller ones.

I still like the idea but the ukuncut oxford street action was great last year (except for all the arrests, but BW avoided that particular trap by not having the one big action target it seems) and a repeat of that was much more appealing to make the journey worthwhile rather than doing basically what we do in Birmingham just somewhere we don't know.
 
sihhi said:
I got told off in an anti-cuts meeting for saying this march was a bad idea and saying it would be better if everyone stayed in the town or borough they were in and organised a local protest at the same time.
It was exactly identical to March 26, in terms of route and content - large march of protestors followed by by being lectured at in Hyde Park. It was the same as March 26, why would those bored or frustrated the last time, who saw that the cuts weren't mitigated much less stopped, go again to do the same thing.

It's exactly the same as the Feb 15 2003 major anti-war rally followed by a series of similar rallies in March and April 2003, doing exactly the same thing. There's nothing no plan for a sit-down protest. No plan for encouraging anything even remotely different. Always central London where the only people to see you are tourists or rich people, never a suburb. It's sort of meant to be against the government but the government are never even touched.

Those who supported the idea on the left seem to come from a totally crazy idea where the only workfare targets are in central London.

Regardless of boos at Ed M, the voices of ordinary people have again been drowned out by Labour pseudo-nonsense in general - they have been interviewed on the radio.
Click to expand...

I Agree with a lot of your post but for two bits, which I've bolded..

First bit, I don't see why a bunch of a-b marches around the UK would be more effective than 3 bigger ones (not that any press will report on the ones in Glasgow and Belfast) in any immediate sense. Local demos happen fairly frequently and November 30th last year was basically exactly what you are suggesting imo, though it was specifically about pensions in name anyway.
There were lots of demonstrations in feb/march 2011 as council's announced their budgets, staggered over a few weeks but all clearly linked by local events.
It's not that I disagree about having local demos, or that I don't think it would be a good idea to have a properly co-ordinated day of local demos around the UK, but I think this has essentially happened and there's no reason not to have a big march in London as well.

The second bit I don't understand at all tbh. Most who supported the idea of the march on the left just went on the march, didn't join DPAC or BW in their actions and some would have disowned it if there had been any violence, some probably disown it for "distracting from the day" anyway.
In terms of those who did join BW we've all done actions on our own high streets and city centres (or if not it's because there are people on their own somewhere and now for once they get to join in an action), like UK Uncut we've had national days of action with loads of places all doing stuff on the same day.. what's wrong with a big day out for everyone to come in one place which is London because unions will give us free spaces on coaches down there and it's easy to organise?
 
BigTom said:
Hell yes! I couldn't make it to yesterday so I'll be going down on the 5th, sounds like the police were mostly reasonable yesterday, I imagine they'll be back to their usual brutal selves for the students and I don't have any bruises on my body right now ;)
Click to expand...

it would appear that the time of bruising is upon you
The difference with Operation Jubilee, for it to succeed, is that it MUST be an all for one and one for all event; acting as one body, and any and all policemen who lay their hands on anyone protesting peacefully, especially Muad’Dib, will be citizen's arrested, using their own handcuffs against them. This will help the protest to turn out differently, for once. Both the people and the police need to know the rules that the people will be guided by. So that; if or when they attempt what they are likely to attempt (dragging away an individual); they will see that the people will do exactly what they said they would do, and that they have to keep their hands off peaceful protestors. Any weapons used against the people will be confiscated, by the people. THEY will try to lay down their fraudulent rules, falsely claiming they are laying down and enforcing the law, when they are NOT. If it isn’t in the Bible, it is NOT a law, but a fraudulent piece of man-made legislation. So tell them that, and ignore their unlawful fraudulent orders. If they try to enforce fraudulent legislation, they will be committing a crime against the people, and thus are criminals who must be arrested, irrespective of their appearance. In order to prevent THEM from saying that the operation’s rules would be an excuse for anarchists to do as they like, any wrong-doers among the people, will also be arrested by the people. That will also take care of any agent provocateurs/undercover cops - the ones who throw things, etc, in order to provoke a police charge and brutality. Peacefully protesting against treason, corruption and injustice is Lawful, and anybody who attempts to deny someone's right to do so is committing a crime, and will be arrested. Stay anonymous. Stay free and join Operation Jubilee.
Click to expand...
:D
 
oh wait, I thought the 5th was the student demo.. this is the anonymous thing isn't it.. I won't bother travelling down for that tbh, can't afford to anyway but I can blag a coach space for the student demo..
That quote is just fucking hilarious.
 
BigTom said:
I Agree with a lot of your post but for two bits, which I've bolded..

First bit, I don't see why a bunch of a-b marches around the UK would be more effective than 3 bigger ones (not that any press will report on the ones in Glasgow and Belfast) in any immediate sense. Local demos happen fairly frequently and November 30th last year was basically exactly what you are suggesting imo, though it was specifically about pensions in name anyway.
There were lots of demonstrations in feb/march 2011 as council's announced their budgets, staggered over a few weeks but all clearly linked by local events.
It's not that I disagree about having local demos, or that I don't think it would be a good idea to have a properly co-ordinated day of local demos around the UK, but I think this has essentially happened and there's no reason not to have a big march in London as well.

The second bit I don't understand at all tbh. Most who supported the idea of the march on the left just went on the march, didn't join DPAC or BW in their actions and some would have disowned it if there had been any violence, some probably disown it for "distracting from the day" anyway.
In terms of those who did join BW we've all done actions on our own high streets and city centres (or if not it's because there are people on their own somewhere and now for once they get to join in an action), like UK Uncut we've had national days of action with loads of places all doing stuff on the same day.. what's wrong with a big day out for everyone to come in one place which is London because unions will give us free spaces on coaches down there and it's easy to organise?
Click to expand...

November 30 was much better. I dunno, it feels like an empty ritual now - the large London march exactly like the Stop the War Coalition was - for those coming from other parts of England to London like a day-visit to a shrine. The TUC should use the money they spend on the big London march on actually increasing organisation on the borough/district level. I don't blame anyone for taking part though. I took part. It just feels cynical by the TUC, they have something large and noisy to distract from their behaviour.
 
I think maybe emotion is getting in the way, N30 had a strike behind it and I got sworn at by 2 separate strikebreakers so it was more direct. They got riled up, I was happy.
 
sihhi said:
November 30 was much better. I dunno, it feels like an empty ritual now - the large London march exactly like the Stop the War Coalition was - for those coming from other parts of England to London like a day-visit to a shrine. The TUC should use the money they spend on the big London march on actually increasing organisation on the borough/district level. I don't blame anyone for taking part though. I took part. It just feels cynical by the TUC, they have something large and noisy to distract from their behaviour.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I agree with this entirely and your other post entirely.. I think for the TUC it's a way of containing, controlling and directing the anger about what is happening into something that will get Labour into power supposedly to defend the system that has been getting destroyed since the 70s which they used to have power through..
I'm not one to say that a-b marches are going to be effective, they are advertising really, an opportunity to meet with friends from around the country in this case as well.. I just think what you want has happened and it's not a reason not to have big London marches every so often.
I would like to see another N30 type day though, with marches around the UK. At least it wouldn't mean travelling for ages to do something pointless ;)
 
BigTom said:
I'm not one to say that a-b marches are going to be effective, they are advertising really, an opportunity to meet with friends from around the country in this case as well.. I just think what you want has happened.
Click to expand...

TUC has not put anywhere near the same money for local protests. Nothing is really transparent. Where did 20 October really come from? It was leadership sponsored at the TUC Comgress, wasn't it? TUC doesn't fund organising drives for privatised or workfare people, it caves in on pensions, it doesn't fund joint action with local groups, just makes sure its own big national ones are well attended.
Will TUC really get behind with money in a practical way ETUC's European wide day of action planned for 14 November - general strikes (so far) in Cyprus, Greece, Portugal, Spain? Wait and see I suppose.
 
sihhi said:
TUC has not put anywhere near the same money for local protests. Nothing is really transparent. Where did 20 October really come from? It was leadership sponsored at the TUC Comgress, wasn't it? TUC doesn't fund organising drives for privatised or workfare people, it caves in on pensions, it doesn't fund joint action with local groups, just makes sure its own big national ones are well attended.
Will TUC really get behind with money in a practical way ETUC's European wide day of action planned for 14 November - general strikes (so far) in Cyprus, Greece, Portugal, Spain? Wait and see I suppose.
Click to expand...

There's a europe wide day of action? Shows how much the TUC are going to put into it if I've not heard of it... buy yeah, you're right, aside from N30 which was driven by/about the strike (and followed by sell out), what you want hasn't happened, and I've no idea how to make it happen either. Midlands TUC are fucking useless. December 5th is Autumn statement, we're organising a demo in Birmingham, I imagine there'll be a few around the UK.. but then that's not enough time to pass motions etc. all the way up to the TUC central committee I suppose.
 
BigTom said:
oh wait, I thought the 5th was the student demo.. this is the anonymous thing isn't it.. I won't bother travelling down for that tbh, can't afford to anyway but I can blag a coach space for the student demo..
That quote is just fucking hilarious.
Click to expand...
there seems to be another 5th thing here "operation vendetta" again from trafalgar square. I didn't know of any student things on, are anon hijacking the student stuff?
 
The difference with Operation Jubilee, for it to succeed, is that it MUST be an all for one and one for all event; acting as one body, and any and all policemen who lay their hands on anyone protesting peacefully, especially Muad’Dib, will be citizen's arrested, using their own handcuffs against them. This will help the protest to turn out differently, for once. Both the people and the police need to know the rules that the people will be guided by. So that; if or when they attempt what they are likely to attempt (dragging away an individual); they will see that the people will do exactly what they said they would do, and that they have to keep their hands off peaceful protestors. Any weapons used against the people will be confiscated, by the people. THEY will try to lay down their fraudulent rules, falsely claiming they are laying down and enforcing the law, when they are NOT. If it isn’t in the Bible, it is NOT a law, but a fraudulent piece of man-made legislation. So tell them that, and ignore their unlawful fraudulent orders. If they try to enforce fraudulent legislation, they will be committing a crime against the people, and thus are criminals who must be arrested, irrespective of their appearance. In order to prevent THEM from saying that the operation’s rules would be an excuse for anarchists to do as they like, any wrong-doers among the people, will also be arrested by the people. That will also take care of any agent provocateurs/undercover cops - the ones who throw things, etc, in order to provoke a police charge and brutality. Peacefully protesting against treason, corruption and injustice is Lawful, and anybody who attempts to deny someone's right to do so is committing a crime, and will be arrested. Stay anonymous. Stay free and join Operation Jubilee.
Click to expand...

Not sure about the bible bit, but otherwise spot on. It also describes the behaviour I saw yesterday from some of the black bloc-ish types, they were not attempting to cause damage or provoke confrontation at all but they were straight onto any copper who tried to start any shit, physically obstructing them and/or relieving them of their weapons. Even when two or three aggressive coppers were surrounded by dozens of the people and it would have been the easiest thing in the world to beat them into piggy paté they were simply disarmed and restrained until more coppers turned up to rescue them from the people they so dilligently serve. Top marks all round, this is exactly how violent coppers should be dealt with.

At one point I saw a copper, surrounded and bombarded with chants of 'who's kettled now?' after attempting to smack a passing ne'er do-well with his baton, theatrically returning said baton to its holster while loudly proclaiming 'I'm putting it away now!' having become acutely aware of the likely consequences of him swinging it at anyone :D
 
BigTom said:
There's a europe wide day of action? Shows how much the TUC are going to put into it if I've not heard of it... buy yeah, you're right, aside from N30 which was driven by/about the strike (and followed by sell out), what you want hasn't happened, and I've no idea how to make it happen either. Midlands TUC are fucking useless. December 5th is Autumn statement, we're organising a demo in Birmingham, I imagine there'll be a few around the UK.. but then that's not enough time to pass motions etc. all the way up to the TUC central committee I suppose.
Click to expand...

It's criminal what TUC, Verdi IG Metall, CGT - the major 'north' European countries are doing - every time the southern European countries get together and coordinate their strike days - the north European countries think it inappropriate to attack their own governments. Only by threatening to breakaway from ETUC was the Day of Action even on the agenda.

Who is the General Secretary of ETUC? John Monks (has been since 2003), former General Secretary of the TUC, and he is strongly pro-EU integration (part of the European Movement), which to the south Europeans seems like 'shaft the south with austerity and steer clear of it up north'.
The northern Confederations basically believe the Greeks deserved it and are lazy, and 'their' national money is being spent on Greece so they better show value for money. (Greeks on average work about a fifth longer than British people do).

I think I had better stop now. Does anyone remember John Monks? What was his role in the 1970s and 1980s?
 
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