Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Liz Truss’s time is up

For me it was this bit that seemed way off beam:



The tax cuts and corporate welfare for the rich will never enter the system, let alone circulate. The unearned incomes that result will be squirrelled away in our country's tax havens.

That money was always going to the energy producers and therefore to tax havens. However, the government is now borrowing to pick up £100bn of that tab rather than us (for now at least) and their bet is that money that would otherwise have gone to the energy producers plus tax cuts will now circulate in the economy instead as people spend some of it. Increased household consumption is therefore likely to be higher than forecast.

If we understand growth as Consumption+ Government Spending + Investment + (exports minus imports) and the first of these suddenly has £100bn less extracted by energy prices then you can see why short term growth (with all of the caveats and dangers created) is a reasonable assumption.

The problems this stores up, the fact that most people will still be worse off and the fact that record levels of borrowing are likely to have seismic consequences are not in dispute
 
That money was always going to the energy producers and therefore to tax havens. However, the government is now borrowing to pick up £100bn of that tab rather than us (for now at least)

The bit in parenthesis is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
 
The UK may be lacking in 'viable leftism' but apparently is awash with hyperbole, arrogance and lack of self awareness. Keep up the good work!

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
In what way is there hyperbole and arrogance?
I've tried to be objective.
I see no evidence of you doing the same.
You seem to be reacting rather than considering.
E.g your reaction to the words National "Socialism"

Have you considered why the Nazis called themselves that?

Lexiteers, if you have been following their arguments, have accused the EU of being capitalists. The UK isn't?

question: Then what's the difference?
lexiteers: "In Brexit UK we'd be the boss".

Then why didn't we have "socialism" before we went into the EU?
I put socialism in inverted commas for excellent reasons.
Didn't you know that Blair is a socialist?
He has said so several times and each time the audience laughed, including at a conference of the International Socialists.
It is normal for socialdemocratic parties to be called socialist.
It is often there right in the name Socialist Party
George Galloway now claims to be a Marxist-Leninist!

Yoiu have to define your terms, becuase the terms are deliberately misused.
E.g. communism.
The USSR wasa socialist country.
It was not a communist country.
One could argue that "communist country" is an oxymoron.


Are the Lexiteers nationalist? Yes.
Are they socialist? No.

What's the problem?

Prior to getting into government, Blairism was described, by supporters, here on the web as being national and socialists.
It was also described as the "Third Way" - the term used, among other terms, by Mussolini to describe his political philosophy.

Some people say that the USSR was not democratic, whereas the west is democratic.
In fact, on a daily basis, the USSR was democratic whereas we experience fascism on a daily basis.

The USSR had workers councils in which the workers would discuss the problems and ideas and then vote on them.
In the west, the boss is the boss - the work place is private property.
Indeed, in a monarchy, the country is private property.

Lee Harvey Oswald said the thing that annoyed him when working in the USSR was the workers councils becuase he, as an "american" worker liked to go home as quick as possible when the work was finished....

Sorry that inverted commas annoy. You think, no doubt, that it is arrogance.
It could, of course, be just pointing that words are deliberatly used with different meanings.
Above, Oswald was not referring to Argentinian or Canadian workers....
The importance of the media in control the narrative and the meaning and associations of words.
News is not meant to inform you, but to form opinions.

So we must be clear about how we use words, and not sink into "you know what I mean" or that the dictionaries define words.

Workers have a special significance in socialism because of their significance in the economy of creating wealth.

Nothing has changed there but the older, formerly advanced, nations have changed.
The UK is not the workshop of the world. Indeed it started declining as soon as the US, Germany and others became industry developed.

The working population of the UK (and elsewhere) is much more vulnerable.
Blair said it is a service economy. A vague term. Others talk about a "post industrial" economy - which is not correct. It is is simply an economy which is not dominated by industrial output. There are countries which never had a dominantly industrial economy, but are rich and developed for other reasons, e.g. oil.

The working population is becoming one of office workers and servants.

IBM in the late 1970s had an advertisment (at least in Germany) which said that at least one job will not be replaced by computers - that of a cook in the canteen kitchen.

Well... in any case the future does not look good in a non-socialist society.

One of the key points of socialism was rational production - not duplication or built in obsolescence - and automation.
In the USSR the working hours steadily decreased.
Production was important, but not profitability because there were no shareholders awaiting their dividends.
Here another word needs to be defined "efficiency": in the west it means cutting costs to increase profits for the shareholders - this includes exporting the costs into society.
In socialism, "efficiency" would mean eliminating material waste and shortening the worklng hours for the workers.

It is other who seems to be arrogant and lack safe awareness.
Who like throwing stones.
Who don't seem to care.
Professor Pangloss's
Just internet chat, right?
As Chomsky points out.
It causes impotence because it works as a psychotherapy.
(Not his words and I don't agree with his aims, which are not to empower, but also to act as psychotherapy)

At least Bernard Cribben's guy in the bowler hat seemed to be offering constructive criticism.

Cheers - SysOut
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Sue
In what way is there hyperbole and arrogance?
I've tried to be objective.
I see no evidence of you doing the same.
You seem to be reacting rather than considering.
E.g your reaction to the words National "Socialism"

Have you considered why the Nazis called themselves that?

Lexiteers, if you have been following their arguments, have accused the EU of being capitalists. The UK isn't?

question: Then what's the difference?
lexiteers: "In Brexit UK we'd be the boss".

Then why didn't we have "socialism" before we went into the EU?
I put socialism in inverted commas for excellent reasons.
Didn't you know that Blair is a socialist?
He has said so several times and each time the audience laughed, including at a conference of the International Socialists.
It is normal for socialdemocratic parties to be called socialist.
It is often there right in the name Socialist Party
George Galloway now claims to be a Marxist-Leninist!

Yoiu have to define your terms, becuase the terms are deliberately misused.
E.g. communism.
The USSR wasa socialist country.
It was not a communist country.
One could argue that "communist country" is an oxymoron.


Are the Lexiteers nationalist? Yes.
Are they socialist? No.

What's the problem?

Prior to getting into government, Blairism was described, by supporters, here on the web as being national and socialists.
It was also described as the "Third Way" - the term used, among other terms, by Mussolini to describe his political philosophy.

Some people say that the USSR was not democratic, whereas the west is democratic.
In fact, on a daily basis, the USSR was democratic whereas we experience fascism on a daily basis.

The USSR had workers councils in which the workers would discuss the problems and ideas and then vote on them.
In the west, the boss is the boss - the work place is private property.
Indeed, in a monarchy, the country is private property.

Lee Harvey Oswald said the thing that annoyed him when working in the USSR was the workers councils becuase he, as an "american" worker liked to go home as quick as possible when the work was finished....

Sorry that inverted commas annoy. You think, no doubt, that it is arrogance.
It could, of course, be just pointing that words are deliberatly used with different meanings.
Above, Oswald was not referring to Argentinian or Canadian workers....
The importance of the media in control the narrative and the meaning and associations of words.
News is not meant to inform you, but to form opinions.

So we must be clear about how we use words, and not sink into "you know what I mean" or that the dictionaries define words.

Workers have a special significance in socialism because of their significance in the economy of creating wealth.

Nothing has changed there but the older, formerly advanced, nations have changed.
The UK is not the workshop of the world. Indeed it started declining as soon as the US, Germany and others became industry developed.

The working population of the UK (and elsewhere) is much more vulnerable.
Blair said it is a service economy. A vague term. Others talk about a "post industrial" economy - which is not correct. It is is simply an economy which is not dominated by industrial output. There are countries which never had a dominantly industrial economy, but are rich and developed for other reasons, e.g. oil.

The working population is becoming one of office workers and servants.

IBM in the late 1970s had an advertisment (at least in Germany) which said that at least one job will not be replaced by computers - that of a cook in the canteen kitchen.

Well... in any case the future does not look good in a non-socialist society.

One of the key points of socialism was rational production - not duplication or built in obsolescence - and automation.
In the USSR the working hours steadily decreased.
Production was important, but not profitability because there were no shareholders awaiting their dividends.
Here another word needs to be defined "efficiency": in the west it means cutting costs to increase profits for the shareholders - this includes exporting the costs into society.
In socialism, "efficiency" would mean eliminating material waste and shortening the worklng hours for the workers.

It is other who seems to be arrogant and lack safe awareness.
Who like throwing stones.
Who don't seem to care.
Professor Pangloss's
Just internet chat, right?
As Chomsky points out.
It causes impotence because it works as a psychotherapy.
(Not his words and I don't agree with his aims, which are not to empower, but also to act as psychotherapy)

At least Bernard Cribben's guy in the bowler hat seemed to be offering constructive criticism.

Cheers - SysOut
You’re off your head
 
No it’s not. It’s exactly the same as what I said: record levels of borrowing will almost inevitably produce short term growth. The longer term consequences of doing so are dire.
How will they provide growth when forecasts have said the tax cuts will only benefit the people who spend in the economy by less than £1 a week (or even month, i don't recall)
 
The sterling fall to the lowest rate for 30 odd years is the risk to growth: if the market does not buy the Truss plan and the cost of borrowing goes up then, yes, all bets are off. You are also right that the neo-liberal chicken is coming home to roost in the UK as the chart below indicates. But, the fact remains that Truss is offsetting money that households would have been forecast to have to find. More money in the system - despite the issues you identify - almost (in the short term) produces growth and the sums here are staggering.


energy subsidies-media_FdKcoJ0XkAIaVbm.jpg
It's a pity that firms and households have been lumped together.
I don't think the electricity companies do that.
Since this money goes to the electricity companies, is there any accompanying legislation to ensure that it is used as intended?
 
Sorry, what in particular has been debunked?
Let me google that for you:

These are first 5 results.
 
Let me google that for you:

These are first 5 results.

I see I’m going to have to re-explain the question really slowly but am just popping out.
Maybe later..
 
I see I’m going to have to re-explain the question really slowly but am just popping out.
Maybe later..
There is no need to re-explain the question really slowly. It's just that my powers of telepathy are a bit below par today so perhaps have a less generic question if you want a less generic response.
 
There is no need to re-explain the question really slowly. It's just that my powers of telepathy are a bit below par today so perhaps have a less generic question if you want a less generic response.

Sorry, that was a really irritable response from me.

It was claimed the Laffer curve had been debunked, whereas your response referred to trickle-down economics.

The Laffer Curve has been used in a simplistic manner to justify tax cuts for the rich, often in the framework of trickle-down economics, but they are not synonymous.
 
In what way is there hyperbole and arrogance?
I've tried to be objective.
I see no evidence of you doing the same.
You seem to be reacting rather than considering.
E.g your reaction to the words National "Socialism"

Have you considered why the Nazis called themselves that?

Lexiteers, if you have been following their arguments, have accused the EU of being capitalists. The UK isn't?

question: Then what's the difference?
lexiteers: "In Brexit UK we'd be the boss".

Then why didn't we have "socialism" before we went into the EU?
I put socialism in inverted commas for excellent reasons.
Didn't you know that Blair is a socialist?
He has said so several times and each time the audience laughed, including at a conference of the International Socialists.
It is normal for socialdemocratic parties to be called socialist.
It is often there right in the name Socialist Party
George Galloway now claims to be a Marxist-Leninist!

Yoiu have to define your terms, becuase the terms are deliberately misused.
E.g. communism.
The USSR wasa socialist country.
It was not a communist country.
One could argue that "communist country" is an oxymoron.


Are the Lexiteers nationalist? Yes.
Are they socialist? No.

What's the problem?

Prior to getting into government, Blairism was described, by supporters, here on the web as being national and socialists.
It was also described as the "Third Way" - the term used, among other terms, by Mussolini to describe his political philosophy.

Some people say that the USSR was not democratic, whereas the west is democratic.
In fact, on a daily basis, the USSR was democratic whereas we experience fascism on a daily basis.

The USSR had workers councils in which the workers would discuss the problems and ideas and then vote on them.
In the west, the boss is the boss - the work place is private property.
Indeed, in a monarchy, the country is private property.

Lee Harvey Oswald said the thing that annoyed him when working in the USSR was the workers councils becuase he, as an "american" worker liked to go home as quick as possible when the work was finished....

Sorry that inverted commas annoy. You think, no doubt, that it is arrogance.
It could, of course, be just pointing that words are deliberatly used with different meanings.
Above, Oswald was not referring to Argentinian or Canadian workers....
The importance of the media in control the narrative and the meaning and associations of words.
News is not meant to inform you, but to form opinions.

So we must be clear about how we use words, and not sink into "you know what I mean" or that the dictionaries define words.

Workers have a special significance in socialism because of their significance in the economy of creating wealth.

Nothing has changed there but the older, formerly advanced, nations have changed.
The UK is not the workshop of the world. Indeed it started declining as soon as the US, Germany and others became industry developed.

The working population of the UK (and elsewhere) is much more vulnerable.
Blair said it is a service economy. A vague term. Others talk about a "post industrial" economy - which is not correct. It is is simply an economy which is not dominated by industrial output. There are countries which never had a dominantly industrial economy, but are rich and developed for other reasons, e.g. oil.

The working population is becoming one of office workers and servants.

IBM in the late 1970s had an advertisment (at least in Germany) which said that at least one job will not be replaced by computers - that of a cook in the canteen kitchen.

Well... in any case the future does not look good in a non-socialist society.

One of the key points of socialism was rational production - not duplication or built in obsolescence - and automation.
In the USSR the working hours steadily decreased.
Production was important, but not profitability because there were no shareholders awaiting their dividends.
Here another word needs to be defined "efficiency": in the west it means cutting costs to increase profits for the shareholders - this includes exporting the costs into society.
In socialism, "efficiency" would mean eliminating material waste and shortening the worklng hours for the workers.

It is other who seems to be arrogant and lack safe awareness.
Who like throwing stones.
Who don't seem to care.
Professor Pangloss's
Just internet chat, right?
As Chomsky points out.
It causes impotence because it works as a psychotherapy.
(Not his words and I don't agree with his aims, which are not to empower, but also to act as psychotherapy)

At least Bernard Cribben's guy in the bowler hat seemed to be offering constructive criticism.

Cheers - SysOut
When I said keep up the good work I didn't think you'd try so hard, so soon, to such effect.

Thanks to whoever created the ignore function - Louis MacNeice
 
Sorry, that was a really irritable response from me.

It was claimed the Laffer curve had been debunked, whereas your response referred to trickle-down economics.

The Laffer Curve has been used in a simplistic manner to justify tax cuts for the rich, often in the framework of trickle-down economics, but they are not synonymous.
Fair Enough. There are critiques of the Laffer curve, but not the pages and pages of calling it out, as there are for Trickle Down Economics.
 
That is so cynical. the trouble with people like you who hate their own country is that you're always talking down our marvellous achievements. I bet you weren't in the queue!
:confused: why bother queuing when Phillip Scofield is there to show you what the coffin looks like (and if you're lucky pay your energy bills)
 
Fair Enough. There are critiques of the Laffer curve, but not the pages and pages of calling it out, as there are for Trickle Down Economics.

Even the word “trickle” is pretty much insulting. “Ooh, we spilt a teeny bit, lick it up if you like, little doggy”.
 
One of the only ideological concessions I saw appear in the press in the wake of the financial crisis was that trickle down was discredited and dead.

Indeed we are far into an era where even the likes of the IMF developed new 'enlightened' rhetoric which rubbished that shit. eg:

In a 2015 assessment, the International Monetary Fund rubbished trickle down and said governments should instead focus on policies that would directly help those on low and middle incomes.

“We find that increasing the income share of the poor and the middle class actually increases growth while a rising income share of the Top 20% results in lower growth – that is, when the rich get richer, benefits do not trickle down,” the IMF said. “This suggests that policies need to be country specific but should focus on raising the income share of the poor, and ensuring there is no hollowing out of the middle class.”

That quote is from Liz Truss favours trickle down economics but results can be trickle up
 
The Laffer curve and trickle down economics. The idea that by cutting taxes you increase the incentive for economic activity and therefore tax returns. It doesn’t go back to the economy. It gets offshored.

I think you’ve conflated a few things in this and other posts. Nevertheless, yes, trickle-down economics is the kind of scam so transparent that only those who stand to gain massively from it can say the term with a straight face.
 
Back
Top Bottom