Libertarian and Liberal

[Al Kahul]

Butchers Apron:

You clearly do not want a discussion. You want a flame war where you can get the larger group of people here to side with you and start a bullying process.Since I can only be oppressed if I let you I chose not to by not responding to your provocation.

Since you seem to be well established here it is doubtfull that would would or could change your tack but if you did I might respond to you -being a veteran of such things - I would point out though that sarcasm or disingenuous remarks that play to the audience will just turn into a speedy ignore. I don't 'do flame wars' as I reject violence except as a very last resort.

Have a good day.

 

[kabbes]

When the meaning of a term is so incredibly debatable -- with actively opposite meanings in many cases -- is there any point in retaining the term at all? Does it help in any forum or debate, bearing in mind that if you are going to use it you are then going to have to spend hours defining and redefining what you mean by it?

Throw both terms away, other than in popular day-to-day useage, in which their meaning will be defined by context. Other than that, they are pointless.

 

[butchersapron]

What it with these liberatarians that they can't take a bit of disagreement? I've not insulted or abused you (despite some ridiculous characterisations of me on this thread as a supporter of violent irish republicanism). I've gone out of my way to respond to your posts and the points therein whilst you've ignored pretty much all mine (see your last but one reply to me for a great example).

That's all 3 'libertarians' on the board (gmarthews, darios, and now old al kahul) with me on ignore

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip>
JHEs sums it up best, but BA and DLR had both answered your questions in their initial posts.

Agree. Seemed perfectly clear to me.

 

[kabbes]

What it with these liberatarians that they can't take a bit of disagreement? I've not insulted or abused you (despite some ridiculous characterisarions of me on this thread as a supporrted of violent irish republicanism). I've gone out of my way to respond to your posts and the points therein whilst you've ignored pretty much all mine (see your last but one reply to me for a great example).

That's all 3 'libertarians' on the board (gmarthews, darios, and now old al kahul) with me on ignore

Actually, I definitely have libertarian sympathies, but only for my definition of "libertarian", which will then require hours of denate to pin down. And I have strong liberal sympathies too, but that requires substantial further definition too. And I also sympathise with many aspects of socialism, particularly as regards the nature of the social contract. Either way, I don't have you on ignore. I find your posts very interesting and as often insightful as infuriating, as I've told you before. So I don't know whether you want to include me on your list or not, although if you do I'd prefer if you didn't lump my views in with the likes of marthews, with whom I've never actually agreed on any topic yet.

 

[butchersapron]

You read other peoples posts, think about what they said and what that entails for your own position though k. Big diffence

 

[Blagsta]

I am using American definitions since "libertarianism(am)" is so ill developed in Europe and I am on the left edge of that movement. Do I have anything in common with the socialist workers party economically -no, nothing.

By Common European defintions you really mean by common european definitions of people who think like me .The Libertarian party in the UK do not think like you .

I am a left-libertarian not a libertarian leftist . If you cannot work out the difference I will try and explain.

You're using American definitions, even though libertarian is a word with historical roots in European socialism?

 

[butchersapron]

You're using American definitions, even though libertarian is a word with historical roots in European socialism?

I've just read through the UK libertarian party's (whose usage of the term al kahul recommends) manifesto - and it appears the term means 'real tory': here's a sample:

We will ensure that sufficient prison places are available to make capacity not a factor in detention, bail or sentencing decisions.

Make prison harsher for uncooperative inmates as necessary while rewarding cooperation.

Life to mean life, and an end to early release of the violent or abuser.

No consideration for age or gender should influence sentencing.

More funding for more police, especially traffic police

Wiretap evidence to be permitted as evidence in court cases.

An end to State funding of lifestyle choices. People dependent on the State shall not normally get additional housing or cash provision if they expand their family either through birth or the accumulation of additional dependants for whatever reason.

Abolishing Income Tax will remove the need for complex tax credits and similar benefits. In future, taxes will be on consumption, not earnings.

Our Armed Forces need to be able to make an enemy think twice, so must have the ability to project force rapidly, globally and flexibly in focused ways, e.g. submarines, amphibious assault, Marines, Special Forces.
To protect supply lines and commercial shipping and fisheries from piracy and other interference will require a suitably sized fleet of Corvettes, Frigates and associated support craft.

Our aim is to enable people to hold their healthcare provider to account and, if found wanting, have the freedom to take their business elsewhere. This cannot be done while the State is the monopoly provider who takes payment, commissions, runs and administers that monopoly. We do not envisage a mass sell-off of State assets, but a switch to independent not-for-profit and private entities competing openly.

There's reams of this tory dross dresed up in libertarian clothes.

 

[Blagsta]

So even the UK Libertarian party aren't libertarian.

Over to you Alcohol (and Darios etc)...

 

[nino_savatte]

Opposition to faith on the basis that it was the antitheses of reason.

her view on race thus "Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism ... [the notion] that a man is to be judged, not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestors,"


I am certainly sympathetic to the idea that man is should follow happiness ,self fulfillment and reason.

This does not mean I am a Randist or that you can infer support for any of he other Ideas but these Ideas I found interesting

Her ideas are twisted. Her take on racism is a good case in point. Objectivism is nothing less than her reaction to her early life in post-Revolutionary Russia.

Rand was neither a philosopher or an academic.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I've just read through the UK libertarian party's (whose usage of the term al kahul recommends) manifesto - and it appears the term means 'real tory': here's a sample:

I particularly like their "immigration" section, which seems basically to be "As libertarians we want to see the free movement of goods, capital and people. But obviously we can't have free movement of people, don't be silly, so we're just going to be harder on asylum seekers instead."

 

[Al Kahul]

and indeed this was my ponit. Butchers apron has now assembled a "posse commitatus ' of Blagsta and fridgemagnet who will now ,no doubt twist what I say,indulge in ad hominems etc.

Actually I don't support the libertarian party because they are right libertarians and I am not one . I support the free movement of peoples throughout the world and a phasing out of immigration controls .

 

[Gmart]

I find your posts very interesting

Example? I would be truly interested but my decision to have him on ignore is after months of trying to get him to discuss issues sensibly only to have him throw vitriol and waffle in an attempt to derail the thread.

Al Kahul put it very well when earlier talking to BA:

You clearly do not want a discussion. You want a flame war where you can get the larger group of people here to side with you and start a bullying process.Since I can only be oppressed if I let you I chose not to by not responding to your provocation.

Since you seem to be well established here it is doubtfull that would would or could change your tack but if you did I might respond to you -being a veteran of such things - I would point out though that sarcasm or disingenuous remarks that play to the audience will just turn into a speedy ignore. I don't 'do flame wars' as I reject violence except as a very last resort.

So I don't know whether you want to include me on your list or not, although if you do I'd prefer if you didn't lump my views in with the likes of marthews, with whom I've never actually agreed on any topic yet.

Well you seem to have libertarian views which echo my own, so I don't know what yr on about here.

And as far as those who feel that my views are 'thick as shit' etc I would point out that I have always spent a long time crafting my posts with a great deal of thought. Some people appreciate this, some can't be bothered to read them, but I suggest that they are not at all 'thick as shit'. Still people are entitled to think what they wish and I care not a jot.

I have BA, VP and Nino on ignore because they have consistently failed to engage in discussion, preferring instead to use my threads to lecture their own bullshit (as opposed to conversation). They seem unable to start threads for themselves to do this, and I find it rude.

 

[nino_savatte]

I have BA, VP and Nino on ignore because they have consistently failed to engage in discussion, preferring instead to use my threads to lecture their own bullshit (as opposed to conversation). They seem unable to start threads for themselves to do this, and I find it rude.

I think the real reason is because you can't stand to be contradicted. I think I have tried to engage with you but the way in which you engage in discussion is neither honest, sincere nor open. The trouble with you is this: you accuse others of the very things that you are guilty of.

 

[kabbes]

If you want to read good posts then I suggest you try occasionally reading debates on subects that interest you whilst not getting sidetracked by actually posting yourself. Much as I have done with this thread (with a couple of throwaway exceptions). You learn a lot more that way. By speaking, you can only learn what is in your own head. By listening, you can learn what is in other people's. And by not taking part, you don't get emotionally involved, which means you don't spend the whole time defending yourself and making counterarguments.

If you try that, you might find that butchers and VP both have a lot of interesting things to say. Even Nino, sometimes, when he isn't just in attack-dog mode. Sometimes, I even find that you do too.

 

[Gmart]

If you try that, you might find that butchers and VP both have a lot of interesting things to say. Even Nino, sometimes, when he isn't just in attack-dog mode. Sometimes, I even find that you do too.

I understand your position, but I gave them all a long time to convince me, and life is too short to put up with that kind of abuse in the long term.

 

[Blagsta]

and indeed this was my ponit. Butchers apron has now assembled a "posse commitatus ' of Blagsta and fridgemagnet who will now ,no doubt twist what I say,indulge in ad hominems etc.

Blimey, talk about paranoia!

Actually I don't support the libertarian party because they are right libertarians and I am not one . I support the free movement of peoples throughout the world and a phasing out of immigration controls .

What is "left" about your views?

 

[Al Kahul]

Blimey, talk about paranoia!



What is "left" about your views?

its only paranoia if they aren't out to get you and you seem pretty aggressive to me .Even your name seems to be a cross between 'Blag' ie t steal rob or otherwise illegally obtain and the ending of 'gangsta' ,

what is left? my views are on the left of libertarianism (am) where it joins the individualist part of anarchism look up .mutualism ,agorism and geo anarchism.you may wish to call these 'right anarchism' if you wish

 

[FridgeMagnet]

and indeed this was my ponit. Butchers apron has now assembled a "posse commitatus ' of Blagsta and fridgemagnet who will now ,no doubt twist what I say,indulge in ad hominems etc.

Actually I don't support the libertarian party because they are right libertarians and I am not one . I support the free movement of peoples throughout the world and a phasing out of immigration controls .

Blimey, I'm in a posse!

I have no interest at all in who or what you support, and if you do not cease hounding and bullying me I shall be forced to report you to a moderator.

 

[butchersapron]

What differentiates your left-libertarianism from right-libertarianism? You must surely know, or why else would you choose to describe yourself thusly?

 

[danny la rouge]

you seem pretty aggressive to me

You should see when a real battle breaks out!

All people are doing is challenging. This is a discussion forum; people discuss, disagree, get irritated, laugh, agree, and have a lark. It's fine.

And Blag's a pussycat.

 

[Blagsta]

its only paranoia if they aren't out to get you and you seem pretty aggressive to me .Even your name seems to be a cross between 'Blag' ie t steal rob or otherwise illegally obtain and the ending of 'gangsta' ,

Classic!

what is left? my views are on the left of libertarianism (am) where it joins the individualist part of anarchism look up .mutualism ,agorism and geo anarchism.you may wish to call these 'right anarchism' if you wish

Yes, what is "left" about them?

 

[Blagsta]

You should see when a real battle breaks out!

All people are doing is challenging. This is a discussion forum; people discuss, disagree, get irritated, laugh, agree, and have a lark. It's fine.

And Blag's a pussycat.

miaow!

 

[kabbes]

I may dive in here.

To me, libertarianism simply means that your ideal is as minimal a government as can be reasonably maintained. To that end, it has an awful lot in common with anarchism, as has already been extensively been discussed on this thread. I approve of this, to the extent that I believe in the notion that people should be free to do whatever they like until such a time comes when this action causes demonstrable sufficient harm, at which point and only at which point it should be banned.

The notions of a large army and rigorous borders and a large police force, as stated in the UK Libertarian Party website, are all anathema to what I would think of as libertarianism.

I don't think that anything from the above necessarily contradicts a left-leaning economic outlook. It just comes down to how you define the "sufficient harm" that is necessary for intervention. I would argue, for example, that the excesses of unfettered free marketism definitely form sufficient harm and need strong intervention. But then, I am not a very good libertarian.

But good libertarian or not, I still think that my *starting point* is libertarian in nature -- leave people to do as they see fit unless you absolutely have to intervene. This contrasts to the authoritarian starting point of allowing *nothing* unless people can prove that it is harmless for them to do it.

 

[Al Kahul]

Blimey, I'm in a posse!

I have no interest at all in who or what you support, and if you do not cease hounding and bullying me I shall be forced to report you to a moderator.

how brave you are a moderator it seems and there my discussion with you ends.
Since you seem to have some sort of moderator position I won't discuss anything more with you because of the power discrepancy that entails.

so Bye.

 

[Al Kahul]

What differentiates your left-libertarianism from right-libertarianism? You must surely know, or why else would you choose to describe yourself thusly?

there is a stange difficulty some people here have in working out that something can be 'left' of something else without being on the left.

Hearing some people wittering on you would think that people would object to the station "Lambeth North' because its in the south of London.

Right libertarians tend to be pro military ,anti immigration,anti green,anti animal welfare .Left libertraians tend to the opposite.

 

[danny la rouge]

Hey, do this and post the results:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

That might help.

 

[Blagsta]

there is a stange difficulty some people here have in working out that something can be 'left' of something else without being on the left.

Hearing some people wittering on you would think that people would object to the station "Lambeth North' because its in the south of London.

Right libertarians tend to be pro military ,anti immigration,anti green,anti animal welfare .Left libertraians tend to the opposite.

Yes, you keep saying that you're "left" without saying what it is that makes you "left".

 

[kabbes]

On the political compass, I come out about -1 on the economic scale but about -8 on the authoritarian one.

 

[Al Kahul]

Hey, do this and post the results:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

That might help.

results


Economic Left/Right: 2.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.77