lefty party predictions

[Coolfonz]

Basically you have no idea how a 35 hour week would work. Have no idea how it would hit existing workers. Have no idea how it works in France. Have no idea how it would be implemented. Even though, as you say, "there is plenty enough info". As for the rest of Left Unity's 13 month old economic "policy" document...

And in return for what are really some very minor questions about the validity of the economic policy - you know, ones you might get asked on the doorstep - you tell me to "join the labour party."

But anyway economic policy doesn't really matter, as people who might vote for Left unity are - in your prejudgment - "not, overwhelmingly, concerned" about whether any of it adds up, because you guys have seen through it all and have formulated a "different way of running the world."

Brilliant, 11 out of 10.

 

[belboid]

You dont want to be convinced, you want to be convinced that 'the left' is crap and not worth bothering with. Not exactly hard. Thats why you should join the Labour Party, it'd suit you perfectly.

As to the 35 hour week, its very simple, you legislate for it, like they did in France. You may need to introduce it over a few years in some areas where there would otherwise be shortages, but otherwise, what's the issue? You havent actually come up with one, nothing at all, you've just implied its unworkable. If you have a point to make, please make it.

And what's the problem with a document being a year old? Nothing has fundamentally changed economically in that time, so your whine is just more evidence that you are not really concerned with the issue, and are just desperately digging for anything that you can use as an excuse not to support it.

I dont think LU is much kop, but it's weaknesses are almost nothing to do with your right-wing whinges.

btw - the Green Party manifesto was even vaguer, and contained proposals that even they said were not implementable. Didn't do them much harm, did it?

 

[co-op]

I get your point, thanks.

Are you sure you're not carrying over some baggage from your 'winning is everything' position on the Bluescum thread?

 

[SpackleFrog]

because it should be that its only the revolutionaries that can offer a coherent explanation for the crisis. In previous crises you have usually seen a growth of the left for precisely that reason. And we've seen it in various countries around the world this time.

In the UK tho, the left has performed abysmally, shrunk in size and influence, and got laughably bad results. To pretend otherwise is burying your head in the sand.

Why should it be? Do you think it grew in 1979?

I don't believe the left has shrunk in size and influence. I do think that 'the left' had pretty much fuck all size and influence prior to the crisis mind, so while I'd argue the left is growing, it's doing so from a basis of sweet fuck all.

 

[SpackleFrog]

It's hard to categorise the TUSC's efforts as anything other than a total disaster.

It's a great pity and had I lived in England probably I would have supported the local candidate. But...just seems to be another iteration of the same failed strategy.

What failed strategy is that?

 

[belboid]

Why should it be? Do you think it grew in 1979?

I don't believe the left has shrunk in size and influence. I do think that 'the left' had pretty much fuck all size and influence prior to the crisis mind, so while I'd argue the left is growing, it's doing so from a basis of sweet fuck all.

Militant and the SWP both grew significantly in the early eighties. I dunno how long you've been involved in lefty stuff, but it has definitely shrunk since the turn of the century.

What failed strategy is that?

the one that saw TUSC's average vote being barely any better than the RCP's 25 years ago?

 

[Coolfonz]

Are you sure you're not carrying over some baggage from your 'winning is everything' position on the Bluescum thread?

Exactly. Yeah it was so much better 25 years of Chelsea being shit, and even shitter.
I remember when I said we should play 15 players instead of 11 in about 1983, someone asked me `how would we do that?` I told them to `go and support QPR.` How dare they ask me questions, not real Chelsea you see...

If you want to see how shit the 35 hour week is in France - see, it doesn't actually apply to everyone - go and ask the people I know who work for 15 euros a day...

 

[SpackleFrog]

Militant and the SWP both grew significantly in the early eighties. I dunno how long you've been involved in lefty stuff, but it has definitely shrunk since the turn of the century.

Ahhh, but you're measuring growth in votes, aren't you? I've been involved in lefty stuff on and off since the Iraq War, and it seems to me that support for left ideas has grown, and the numbers of people prepared to march and strike has grown.

Most of the left are middle class wankers so I don't really care about them

the one that saw TUSC's average vote being barely any better than the RCP's 25 years ago?

Describe the strategy. You know I wasn't born then!

 

[belboid]

Ahhh, but you're measuring growth in votes, aren't you? I've been involved in lefty stuff on and off since the Iraq War, and it seems to me that support for left ideas has grown, and the numbers of people prepared to march and strike has grown.

Most of the left are middle class wankers so I don't really care about them

Naah, I'm talking about being actively involved in 'organised' left wing groups and campaigns. And they've fallen. As have the number of people taking part in strike action. There is an extent to which support for lefty ideas has grown, but that hasn't translated into people taking part in action, or, seemingly, believing its possible these days.

Describe the strategy. You know I wasn't born then!

the RCP one? Where posh suits, carry out a couple of stunts/bad play acting while shouting that we need to end capitalism now, and fuck the imperialist Labour Party.

 

[belboid]

If you want to see how shit the 35 hour week is in France - see, it doesn't actually apply to everyone - go and ask the people I know who work for 15 euros a day...

cant you tell us yourself? And, I assume, you missed the bit in the manifesto about no loss of wages, and anything over 35 being okay as long as it is purely voluntary and appropriately paid.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What failed strategy is that?

The demon of left Parliamentary reformism, comrade.

 

[chilango]

I don't think there's any doubt at all that the Left has shrunk dramatically over the long term.

25 to 30 years ago you could count (if you were will g to allow for the usual embellishments and exaggerations c. 10k members for the SWP, similar for Militant and probably the same again for all the groups added together.

You wouldn't get 1/3 of that now.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

the one that saw TUSC's average vote being barely any better than the RCP's 25 years ago?

I see the failure just not the strategy

 

[free spirit]

I don't think there's any doubt at all that the Left has shrunk dramatically over the long term.

25 to 30 years ago you could count (if you were will g to allow for the usual embellishments and exaggerations c. 10k members for the SWP, similar for Militant and probably the same again for all the groups added together.

You wouldn't get 1/3 of that now.

all depends how you see the Green Party doesn't it.

Most of it's members would see it as a party of the left (or mostly of the left), particularly most of the newer members, and it now has 65k members 3.8% of the general election vote and probably more like 5-6% of the council votes (still waiting for the final figures on that, but extrapolating from local results that'd be quite likely).

If by left, you mean explicitly socialist, then I suppose you'd be correct in excluding the greens, but if you're wondering where the left wing support has gone, then it's mostly gone to the greens in the absence of any serious alternative option.

 

[chilango]

all depends how you see the Green Party doesn't it.

Most of it's members would see it as a party of the left (or mostly of the left), particularly most of the newer members, and it now has 65k members 3.8% of the general election vote and probably more like 5-6% of the council votes (still waiting for the final figures on that, but extrapolating from local results that'd be quite likely).

If by left, you mean explicitly socialist, then I suppose you'd be correct in excluding the greens, but if you're wondering where the left wing support has gone, then it's mostly gone to the greens in the absence of any serious alternative option.

I'd agree that many of those who would in the past have been significant sections of the audience for the leftie groups are instead drawn to the Greens.

I'd also agree that the Greens are "to the left".

However, they aren't really equivalent to the explicitly revolutionary socialist groups that could mobilise 10s of thousands a generation ago.

That all there is to fill (or not) the void left by the disappearance of almost the entire left of Labour spectrum is the Greens underlines rather than undermines how much has been lost.

 

[chilango]

...and yet I'm not entirely sure that this is a bad thing!

 

[free spirit]

Seeing things from the inside, I reckon the Green Party's in a pretty interesting position at the moment, it seems to be in a bit of a state of flux / a transition between a 'neither left nor right' type position similar to the previous lib dem position, and a much more explicitly left wing position. Previously I think the party was relatively balanced between the 2 sides, but now with the influx of members from the left, I'd suspect the membership is a lot more left leaning, and already pulling the party to the left eg with the vote at the last conference to explicitly rule out supporting any austerity budgets.

That probably isn't yet reflected in the make up of the councillors etc as it takes time for that to filter through to those elected at local levels, but I suspect this will change over the next few years.

There are also a few pretty out there notions from the likes of positive money etc re nationalising money creation / ending fractional reserve banking, and the concept of zero growth being needed for environmental sustainability, both of which are very radical ideas, but to me are pretty nuts ideas that need challenging too.

What I think could possibly change things a lot would be if the unions involved with TUSC finally worked out how much of a waste of time, effort and money that project has been, and allied with the Greens instead in some way. The Greens appointed a union liason officer last year I think, which is a step in the right direction anyway.

One thing with the Greens is that the local parties are very autonomous, so it's entirely possible to build very strong left wing local parties under the Green banner, and there's no real structure for the national party to attempt to purge them as happened with millitant in Labour, even if they wanted to, but tbh the noises from the leadership downwards are all relatively left wing in outlook anyway, and the dissenters seem to be very much in the minority. I'd expect a lot of the left unity members to end up in the Greens in the next few years, certainly in Leeds they were all sat with us at the election count, and supporting us where they lived, while campaigning for their one council candidate, so it makes sense really for people to coalesce under the most recognisable left of centre banner to attempt to actually mount some serious electoral challenges. I doubt there'd be a problem with current left unity candidates standing as green party candidates as the green party doesn't have enough strong candidates anyway and was often standing the same people in council and constituency elections in different areas this time.

I guess we'll see how things pan out, but I do get the feeling there's a pretty big opportunity here for others on the left to get involved and build on the platform that's been established at this election.

Things may be different in other areas of the country though.

 

[Jean-Luc]

Full results here. Anybody know why the SLP does so well compared with TUSC?

 

[chilango]

Full results here. Anybody know why the SLP does so well compared with TUSC?

They are dismal, dismal results.

...and no major leap for the "real" parties (TUSC et al.) over the likes of the WRP and so on who don't really exist anymore.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Andrew Jordan of the SLP is slime.

 

[free spirit]

They are dismal, dismal results.

...and no major leap for the "real" parties (TUSC et al.) over the likes of the WRP and so on who don't really exist anymore.

not a single deposit saved between them, though I now have more of an appreciation of how hard even achieving that is, but we got 7% on an explicitly anti-austerity platform.

 

[William of Walworth]

(re Cambridge)

no TUSC candidate there

Yes, just properly rechecked that today.

Bit confusing, because Tom Woodcock had stood for one left cause or another in more than one previous general election in Cambridge for definite, and I'd just assumed that he was standing again.

He's definitely TUSC-associated by now too -- perhaps he's concentrating on locals.

 

[emanymton]

Full results here. Anybody know why the SLP does so well compared with TUSC?

They used to have 'leader Arthur Scargill' printed on the ballot paper. Asumming that is still the same I guess his name still has some weight.

 

[The39thStep]

Full results here. Anybody know why the SLP does so well compared with TUSC?

Probably because they have a small base and some connections to working class families locally

 

[The39thStep]

all depends how you see the Green Party doesn't it.

Most of it's members would see it as a party of the left (or mostly of the left), particularly most of the newer members, and it now has 65k members 3.8% of the general election vote and probably more like 5-6% of the council votes (still waiting for the final figures on that, but extrapolating from local results that'd be quite likely).

If by left, you mean explicitly socialist, then I suppose you'd be correct in excluding the greens, but if you're wondering where the left wing support has gone, then it's mostly gone to the greens in the absence of any serious alternative option.

That graph doesn't much sense in its pole values.the majority libertarian thought these days is actually neo liberalism.

 

[belboid]

Probably because they have a small base and some connections to working class families locally

lol

 

[free spirit]

That graph doesn't much sense in its pole values.the majority libertarian thought these days is actually neo liberalism.

only for the markets and capitalism itself.

In terms of the authoritarianism that the people themselves feel from the state that's about right, think control orders, secret terrorism courts, undercover cops infiltrating protest groups etc. then attempt to explain those policies as being libertarian.

 

[The39thStep]

only for the markets and capitalism itself.

In terms of the authoritarianism that the people themselves feel from the state that's about right, think control orders, secret terrorism courts, undercover cops infiltrating protest groups etc. then attempt to explain those policies as being libertarian.

Libertarain means that far white right and islamacist terror groups have a right to go about their business?

 

[Idris2002]

Libertarain means that far white right and islamacist terror groups have a right to go about their business?

When they're not actually giving Holocaust deniers a platform in their 'libertarian' magazines (really, it was on here a few months back).

E2A: Story here. http://pando.com/2014/07/24/as-reas...a-copy-of-its-holocaust-denial-special-issue/

 

[free spirit]

Libertarain means that far white right and islamacist terror groups have a right to go about their business?

imprisoning people on the basis of secret trials where the defendant isn't allowed to see the evidence against them is definitely not a libertarian position.

That's about as police state as it's possible to get tbh, and we're now getting well into thought crime territory as well, plus the use of obscure old joint enterprise legislation to covict people for doing nothing more than being in the same place someone else who did commit a crime, locking up asylum seekers for months / years on end and removing many of their rights to claim legal aid.....

It's all pretty far removed from a libertarian position.