Labours Broadband proposal...

[littlebabyjesus]

Right, so free broadband is more important than free water or free heating!

FFS, get a grip you lot.

Free water and, particularly, heating are more problematic, just on the practical level that these have energy implications. Free broadband doesn't have the same energy consideration. Once it's there, the extra energy to run it is minimal.

Free domestic water supply would be feasible within limits - if you used more than a particular share, you'd have to pay extra, though, and businesses would still have to pay. Free domestic heating is more of a problem - with the best will in the world, that's not a good way to encourage efficient energy use. There are other ways of improving social justice in that area, just not necessarily free provision of energy.

But where there is a relatively easy win, why not take that relatively easy win? As I said above, it's not either/or.

 

[agricola]

You're not making any sense!

Maintenance of the network involves people to maintain it, currently 32,000.

Apologies - the point I was trying to make is that two figures are being compared which may not refer to the same thing. £2 billion is what it takes to run the entire Openreach company, now, with some expansion going on, including the cost of all employees and with a variety of technologies in use.

The figure Labour cited was for maintaining a network of one technology after it has been established; not the total cost of running the proposed new company after everything has been done (so not necessarily including employee costs, customer services or whatever).

 

[YouSir]

Right, so free broadband is more important than free water or free heating!

FFS, get a grip you lot.

It isn't an either/or proposal though, is it? It's something which could potentially be a major stimulus to rural areas (which they definitely need), a saving for the vast majority of people and an easier way to access public services, education and information for everyone.

 

[mx wcfc]

Right, so free broadband is more important than free water or free heating!

FFS, get a grip you lot.

No clearly not, and I don't think anyone is arguing that. I'd nationalise water, power, gas, transport and, eventually the whole damned lot would be under workers' control, but it ain't going to happen. As LBJ said above, there is actually a strong business case for sorting out broadband - and the private sector has failed on that in an abysmal way.

 

[brogdale]

Funny how you never hear them complain about the phrase "at no cost to the taxpayer".

Or bang on about the opportunity cost of Trident.

 

[Raheem]

Right, so free broadband is more important than free water or free heating!

Well, you definitely can't get porn on a combi-boiler.

 

[mx wcfc]

Funny how you never hear them complain about the phrase "at no cost to the taxpayer".

Pillock. We are all taxpayers and we all want decent broadband. As do the bosses. It is to capitalism's advantage to sort infrastructure like broadband out.

 

[agricola]

Well, you definitely can't get porn on a combi-boiler.

you can, but the heat distorts the paper something rotten

 

[brogdale]

Let's not overlook the moral argument for universalism either; with welfare access effectively becoming online only, it's clearly a essential component of social justice. Anyone denying the import of this point has clearly never tried to navigate the gate-keepers of transfer payments on a public library PC.

 

[Raheem]

Pillock. We are all taxpayers and we all want decent broadband. As do the bosses. It is to capitalism's advantage to sort infrastructure like broadband out.

Not sure you took the time to understand my post.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Let's not overlook the moral argument for universalism either; with welfare access effectively becoming online only, it's clearly a essential component of social justice. Anyone denying the import of this point has clearly never tried to navigate the gate-keepers of transfer payments on a public library PC.

Yep. And I hope Labour have the courage to make that argument in the coming weeks. They should be firmly on the front foot with this stuff.

 

[Gramsci]

This came up at work today.

I do a working class job several guys at work support the idea of renationialing utilities like rail and BT.

As far as they are concerned the private companies that took over these companies just milk the ordinary working person and either provide an expensive service ( rail and water) or a sub standard service ( broadband).

The general view is that privatised utilities are all about making money out of the average working person to make big bucks for themselves. Its just another way "They" take our hard earned money off us to make themselves richer.

This is my straw poll but I think there is a lot of support for taking utilities out of the hands of the private sector.

The private sector has proved itself to make things expensive or not provide a good service.

Broadband is a farce.

I'm having issues with my Broadband. My supplier is the Phone Coop. They are ok and pay living Wage and are part of the Cooperative movement.

My problem is the antiquated line run by BT. I really need them to come and sort it out.

I would love it be renationalised.

 

[Badgers]

Right, so free broadband is more important than free water or free heating!

FFS, get a grip you lot.

Tory response

Water is better than electricity
Broadband is better than Facebook
Money is better than people
People are better than the climate

 

[Marty1]

Tory response

Water is better than electricity
Broadband is better than Facebook
Money is better than people
People are better than the climate

Can you do a Labour and Lib Dem response too (for balance)?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Apologies - the point I was trying to make is that two figures are being compared which may not refer to the same thing. £2 billion is what it takes to run the entire Openreach company, now, with some expansion going on, including the cost of all employees and with a variety of technologies in use.

The figure Labour cited was for maintaining a network of one technology after it has been established; not the total cost of running the proposed new company after everything has been done (so not necessarily including employee costs, customer services or whatever).

Openreach is one network, I am not aware of them having a 'variety of technologies in use', they largely have fibre to street cabinets & old phone wires into homes, that will be replaced by fibre into homes. I see no reason why the new & expanded network will cost 1/10th of the current cost, esp. with the promise of no job loses.

Openreach don't have customer services as such, they don't deal with the public, they only rent their network out to the likes of BT Retail, Sky, TalkTalk, etc, who are the retailers & run their own customer services.

 

[cupid_stunt]

It isn't an either/or proposal though, is it? It's something which could potentially be a major stimulus to rural areas (which they definitely need), a saving for the vast majority of people and an easier way to access public services, education and information for everyone.

Yes, it should be rolled out to everyone, I have no problem with that. Making it cheaper too would be great.

Making it totally free is bonkers.

 

[YouSir]

Yes, it should be rolled out to everyone, I have no problem with that. Making it cheaper too would be great.

Making it totally free is bonkers.

I don't know. Yet to see any source that talks about the report they got their costings from and estimates range from Labour's to the Tories, which apparently include the life of everyone's first born child. Maybe Labour's numbers are nonsense but it gets on my tits that everyone gets to make their own guesses at what the actual numbers are and then we're all supposed to argue about it. Routine behaviour for British politics/media though, shit information in, nothing of use out.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Right, so free broadband is more important than free water or free heating!

FFS, get a grip you lot.

I think the argument labour is making is that the firms that generate massive profits from UK internet traffic (amazon, google/alphabet, facebook, apple etc) should cover the cost of UK consumers in accessing the internet, which generates these firms their profits.

I agree free water - or energy, or public transport - of greater importance fwiw. But the tax on tech firms to provide x,y,z wouldn't translate the same as tax on tech to fund the service that sustains them

 

[brogdale]

Yes, it should be rolled out to everyone, I have no problem with that. Making it cheaper too would be great.

Making it totally free is bonkers.

The only bonkers thing is the lack of ambition; I'd like to see the LP proposing free public transport, dentistry, glasses, prescriptions etc. etc...why can't the left move that fucking Overton window as much as the right?
Important not to forget to demand the impossible.

 

[Marty1]

The only bonkers thing is the lack of ambition; I'd like to see the LP proposing free public transport, dentistry, glasses, prescriptions etc. etc...why can't the left move that fucking Overton window as much as the right?
Important not to forget to demand the impossible.

Do you think Labour would stretch to free electric vans for lowly delivery drivers?

 

[YouSir]

Do you think Labour would stretch to free electric vans for lowly delivery drivers?

Would love to see a nationalised car manufacturer doing solely electric vehicles to replace public transport and commercial fleets.

 

[Proper Tidy]

The only bonkers thing is the lack of ambition; I'd like to see the LP proposing free public transport, dentistry, glasses, prescriptions etc. etc...why can't the left move that fucking Overton window as much as the right?
Important not to forget to demand the impossible.

Prescriptions in particular should be low hanging fruit given they already are in every country bar england

 

[YouSir]

Prescriptions in particular should be low hanging fruit given they already are in every country bar england

Labour have already said they want that, although hasn't been announced in the election run up yet.

 

[weltweit]

I live in the sticks and have a standard BT service, it is fast enough to stream tv while doing other things. There is a faster service available but I don't think I can justify the cost (I don't actually know what the cost is). However my issue is that my present service isn't always reliable, sometimes it buffers and that can coincide with a moment when I need it to be working.

Should fast broadband be free to all? Well it won't be, because free at the point of use just means paid by taxation, so it won't be free.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Im just reporting on what I was told from someone who works for BT and this new Labour proposal has gone down like a lead balloon. Not the type of reaction Labour would want especially in a Labour heartland where I live.

My (actual) mate, a scouser, works for Openreach. He's thrilled at the idea. More overtime, and he might get a decent connection at home.

 

[Marty1]

My (actual) mate, a scouser, works for Openreach. He's thrilled at the idea. More overtime, and he might get a decent connection at home.

Interesting perspective.

For the record, my (actual mate) is my mate - my girlfriend, she works for BT.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Well it won't be, because free at the point of use just means paid by taxation, so it won't be free.

So are parks but anybody can go to them and spend a cheap day because they are free.

Taxpayer isn't a demographic or an identity

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Should fast broadband be free to all? Well it won't be, because free at the point of use just means paid by taxation, so it won't be free.

There needs to be some kind of forfeit for the next person who points this out. Like only being able to talk to Marty1 for the next month or something.

 

[brogdale]

Do you think Labour would stretch to free electric vans for lowly delivery drivers?

If their employer's business was nationalised, yes.

 

[brogdale]

There needs to be some kind of forfeit for the next person who points this out. Like only being able to talk to Marty1 for the next month or something.