Labours Broadband proposal...

[xenon]

I think I have mixed thoughts about this proposal. Monopolies like national comms backbone, railways and water are inherently ripe for nationalisation, both in economic terms and the classic responsibilities of the state. On the other hand, more locally, competition through LLU has probably advanced the state of UK broadband.

More fundamentally how important is it? Obviously Internet access is now effectively mandatory but how deficient is the current state of UK broadband and who suffers? Rural communities are one example but a low percentage now. The national average is apparently about 50Mbps, which lags behind some nations but is nonetheless a reasonable service. So I remain to be convinced that it's that high a priority.

Focusing in on the detail is kind of missing the point though I guess - it's another redistributive scheme, so why not.

Pretty much how I feel. Granted I live in a urban setting and have no problem with internet access. I'm not on fibre, don't need it and albeit I'm pretty skint ATM, don't object to paying for broadband. Not overly keen on everyone having to have the same ISP either, if that's part of this. Public ownership of vital infrastructure, I'm all for that though. I too want to hear more about the Green New Deal and creation of quality jobs in that sector more than more debate about this in the wider media.

It is pretty funny / pathetic the Tory campaign screaming communist every 5 minutes about this stuff though.

 

[Badgers]

IMAGINE IF THE STATE / TAXPAYER FUNDED THE BANKS WHEN THEIR GREED PUT THEM OUT OF BUSINESS

 

[belboid]

If labour have any sense they will have some big proposals for costs/provision of long term/later life care, state/public intervention to ensure larger numbers of better paid carers available, roll back changes to state pension age, end need to claim guarantee credit to top up state pension, stuff like that. Should do this anyway because it is right, but also because there is a clear lack of trust of labour in older voters. Also focus on childcare provision would be welcome.

That’ll be the national care service labour have committed too.

 

[treelover]

If our resident trolls are finding it this hard going with this issue...reckon Corbyn's played a blinder here.

like I said earlier, shades of Harry Perkins in A Very British Coup, its thrown a grenade in the campaign, I suspect that was McDonells intention.

 

[treelover]

Get off youtube.

Anyway not sure this is right thread really but it diverted to a broader discussion on labour policy last night so...

helping the WASPI's will also be a vote winner.

 

[treelover]

That’ll be the national care service labour have committed too.

If it is based on nurses, that will be an issue for those with contested conditions like M.E/Fibro, people with those conditions have struggled to be awarded NHS continuing care as they fall outside the very functional approach of the former.

 

[Cid]

Incidentally my current flat, my old flat and my workshop have no fibre provision (they’re all within about 1km of each other), all top out at the generic ‘10-12mb’ (iirc actual download speed is up to 1.2 mb/s)... this is in central Sheffield. Don’t know how this is reflected elsewhere.

 

[Proper Tidy]

That’ll be the national care service labour have committed too.

Yeah same with national education service, this is good stuff, but has to be specific policy announcements now that hit the headlines and get this stuff talked about otherwise it passes people by. Manifesto discussion is today isn't it so hopefully a better idea later of what they will lead with

 

[Chilli.s]

The only bonkers thing is the lack of ambition; I'd like to see the LP proposing free public transport, dentistry, glasses, prescriptions etc. etc...why can't the left move that fucking Overton window as much as the right?
Important not to forget to demand the impossible.

Makes more sense.

 

[BristolEcho]

I'm for this and like the idea that those who profit from the service are the ones who should also pay some of the cost for it.

Private broadband companies are a shit stain. I've written elsewhere about Virgin offering new customers £18p/m deals and then putting everyone else's up to £40+.

Standard private company shit, but it's the sort of shit that mostly affects those who don't understand how it works and don't have the fight in them too challenge it. An example of this are my elderly parents and people with an additional need.

This means a lot of people I worked with couldn't afford broadband, or had previously had problems with bills so couldn't access it. The internet is now a cornerstone of our society, with it you can access knowledge, benefits, social communities, and also save money. Why should people be excluded from that by parasite companies that rip them off and funnel that money away for their own profit? There is some proper shady stuff that happens with "add on's" and that's just the stuff we picked up on.

On top of all that it would obviously be good for our general infrastructure. I'd rather pay £40 to fund internet for everyone than £30 to fund Bransons latest £100m pad.

 

[SpineyNorman]

That’s irrelevant- Labour are pledging free shit for all in hope it will detract from their position on Brexit.

So is your mum

 

[Badgers]

Virgin Media says its internet is working as normal amid reports of outages

Virgin Media's internet service appears to have stopped working, with users unable to connect to broadband. The company's official Twitter account is being hit by mass complaints as users say they are unable to get on the internet.

Outage comes day after major Sky broadband outage and amid questions over future of internet companies

 

[skyscraper101]

I quite like this term Broadband Communism - would've been a good band name.

"And there'll be two more tracks from Broadband Communism later in the show"

 

[Gramsci]

I think I have mixed thoughts about this proposal. Monopolies like national comms backbone, railways and water are inherently ripe for nationalisation, both in economic terms and the classic responsibilities of the state. On the other hand, more locally, competition through LLU has probably advanced the state of UK broadband.
ot.

My experience is that LLU hasn't advanced broadband.

At this moment my broadband and phone line are down. I live in inner London not a rural area.

My provider is Phone Coop who are a Living Wage employer and are ok on customer service.

I'm getting an engineer from BT Outreach next week.

I had one last year and nothing much changed to my poor speed and intermittent problems.

Dividing the service between BT Outreach and providers like Phone Coop doesn't work.

BT Outreach in my experience don't want to know.

My provider told me that having a BT engineeer out is at my own risk. If they argue its my fault BT Outreach will charge me.

I know what the problem is. Its the antiquated copper line coming into my flat.

The philosophical discussion is where my responsibility lies and where the copper line is BT Outreach.

I have paid rental for years and have to put up with this kind of bollox.

I asked the Phone Coop why couldn't they send out their own engineer. The said they aren't allowed to.

 

[Poi E]

Numbering plans, LLU, copper...all so 20th century. All bloody IP traffic anyway.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I said at the start of the thread that their claim about the cost of running the broadband network, £230m per year paid for by the 'tech tax' was totally out, and that it would be at least £2bn per year.

In their 'Funding Real Change' document they list the figure, combined with free TV licences for all over 75s, at £2.6bn.

The BBC says the cost of TV licences for all over 75s is £745m, but they have agreed to fund the ones for people claiming pension credits, at an estimated cost of £150m, so there's an extra cost of £600m for the government.

Leaving £2bn a year for running the broadband network, not the fantasy figure of £230m they originally announced.

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Funding-Real-Change-1.pdf

 

[mauvais]

Where do you get £2.6bn from?

 

[mauvais]

The National Infrastructure Commission estimates that a full-fibre broadband rollout will save £5.1bn on operating costs over a thirty year period (‘National Infrastructure Assessment’, July 2018, Figure 1.1), costing just £6.9bn over a thirty year period: around £230m a year (averaging discounted present values). Operating costs are estimated at £579m in cash terms in the ‘Tactis/Prism’ report ‘Costs for Digital Communications Infrastructures’ (2017), which are adjusted for inflation. Staff costs for rolling out the network, as opposed to ongoing costs remaining afterwards, are included in capital expenditure.

There are several reasons why this may lead to an overestimate. First, the Tactis/Prism report estimate assumes no infrastructure re-use (“every piece of infrastructure is considered as ‘yet to be built’”, p51) when infrastructure re-use will occur as part of British Broadband’s roll-out. Second, most estimates are predicated on competitive market models, which Labour will not
adopt. Nevertheless we have allowed a further £1,200m in 2023-24 in addition to the (inflation-adjusted) £579m to err on the side of caution.

So if I understand that correctly, £230m is for rollout (new build), £579m is to run the thing. I don't know where the mystery £1.2bn goes, maybe the launch party. Not sure how this has been expressed to the public. But it shouldn't cost £2bn a year, and most of it is what we're already paying.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Where do you get £2.6bn from?

From the link provided:

Spending for 2023/24 - £(bn)

Free TV licences for over 75s, British Broadband running costs 2.6

 

[Gramsci]

Read this today:

Before privatisation by Thatcher BT was seen as cutting edge for updating technology by other countries like Korea. The reaction from Korea to the privatisation was this:

(Korea now has super fast as standard.)

As Dr. Peter Cochrane, the former Chief Technology Officer at BT, recalls “our colleagues in Korea and Japan, who were working with [us] quite closely at the time, stood back and looked at what happened to us in amazement.”

What happened is that Britain fell victim to a dogma that the private sector, and specifically private corporations, can and will deliver any and all goods and services better than the public sector. While much of the rest of the world has since begun to re-evaluate this theory (or never bought into it so wholeheartedly in the first place), Britain remains trapped.

The Labour Party’s proposal to establish a publicly owned broadband network, free for all users, is an important opportunity to break out of this ideological prison and begin to establish common sense approaches and institutions that have the demonstrated potential to lead to a more equitable, prosperous, and sustainable economy.

From :

‘Broadband communism’? Outside the UK, public broadband is a raving success

Basically the article is saying Neo liberalism is so ingrained in this country as commonsense that Labour policy appears extreme. In reality its not.

The article also has examples from US of locally owned broadband providers. Who have stepped in due to private companies being not interested.

Was chatting to friend up North whose just got fibre broadband through a not for profit company.

About B4RN | Hyperfast Community Rural Broadband

Broadband for the Rural North Ltd or ‘B4RN’ was launched in December 2011 by a local volunteer group led by industry expert Barry Forde. Registered as a community benefit society with the FSA (under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act 1965) it can never be bought by a commercial operator and its profits can only be distributed to the community.

The company’s initial share offering raised hundreds of thousands of pounds from the local community and the first ground was broken in Quernmore in March 2012. Within months B4RN’s affordable, community focused model won it the ISPA’s ‘Internet Hero’ award. By 2015 we had 1000 properties connected and received royal recognition with a visit from HRH The Prince of Wales. We are regularly used as a leading exemplar, by national TV and press, of what is possible both in terms of gigabit fibre and an empowered rural community.

He says it really good. You can buy shares and become a member.

 

[Badgers]

Reaching cut-off point with Virgin Media’s sales tactics | Virgin Media | The Guardian