Labour leadership

[BandWagon]

And you can't be of any import to anyone if you are designed around style over substance, a tale told by an idiot, full of hair and soundbites, signifying nothing.

Is that want you want on your headstone? If you won't even dare, try and quite possibly fail in pursuit of something you believe in, why not just give up and get out of the way instead of wasting everyone's time?

Give up and walk away is always an option.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Give up and walk away is always an option.

I don't think you quite got mauvais's point.

 

[BandWagon]

I don't think you quite got mauvais's point.

Whatever. If you can't sell what you've got you're wasting your time.

 

[xenon]

Prostrate grey men onwards to victory.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Whatever. If you can't sell what you've got you're wasting your time.

If what you've got isn't worth having, you're wasting your customer's time.

 

[redsquirrel]

You can't be of significance to anyone if you're sat on the opposition benches.

What absolute crap - you think the election of 56 SNP MPs isn't going to have any significance?

I mean there's a whole load other assumptions in your post but even on the surface level it's just crap.

 

[mauvais]

Whatever. If you can't sell what you've got you're wasting your time.

I could infer from your posts, perhaps wrongly, that you think using Blairite style over substance to achieve power is OK - the means justifying the ends - because at least power then enables you to deliver that substance.

There are many people out there - and this is the most benevolent take on their approach - who subscribe to the theory that a trojan horse is not only a legitimate way to get into power, but an essential one; that is, that you can't get elected by telling people what you actually intend to do, so you have to appear to be something else, and once in you'll be free to revert to plan A. Aside from the surprisingly regular issue of becoming accidentally trapped inside said horse, conveniently forgetting your original intent, the biggest problem with this is it shows utter contempt for the electorate.

It's short termist and weak, and it eventually comes back to haunt you. Nick Clegg is the latest example of this, although his sins are much broader.

 

[BandWagon]

Well, then give up. Tory government forever.

 

[BandWagon]

Well, I'm in a minority here. Anyone got any better ideas?

 

[J Ed]

Get off them opposition benches and into Iraq!

 

[mauvais]

Well, then give up. Tory government forever.

It certainly sounds like you - and the Labour Party - should.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A brief perusal of elected leaders around Europe over the last 50 years reveals lots of bald men.

Or are UK voters uniquely fuckwitted?

Your kind of attitude shows contempt for people. You've lost before you even begin.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, I'm in a minority here. Anyone got any better ideas?

yes

 

[BandWagon]

Better ideas then?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Better ideas then?

Yes.

Ideas.

Put forward ideas. Make a case. Make an argument. Believe in something other than winning and stand on that.

It's the difference between 'doing the vision thing' and actually having a vision.

 

[Pickman's model]

Whatever. If you can't sell what you've got you're wasting your time.

but you're onto a winner if you can sell what you haven't got. for a while anyway.

 

[Pickman's model]

Better ideas then?

yes.

 

[redsquirrel]

Aside from the surprisingly regular issue of becoming accidentally trapped inside said horse, conveniently forgetting your original intent, the biggest problem with this is it shows utter contempt for the electorate.

Yes even ignoring your (very valid) other points this is one of things I'm always struck about with this "plan" - are there any examples of a centre-left party throwing off their cloak and moving to the left in government?

It's just rubbish, fantasy stuff from fools who wanted Blair to suddenly reveal his cunning plan of making Britain an social democratic paradise. Mugs.

 

[BandWagon]

So lay out your better ideas in a coherent fashion and let's see if the electorate buy it.

 

[J Ed]

So lay out your better ideas in a coherent fashion and let's see if the electorate buy it.

THE GREAT DEBATE AND THE BATTLE OF IDEAS

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So lay out your better ideas in a coherent fashion and let's see if the electorate buy it.

So this is my fault now?

 

[J Ed]

MR LOGIC VS MR LOGIC

WHO WILL WIN

 

[BandWagon]

So this is my fault now?

Nothing's your fault. Let's see what your ideas are.

 

[J Ed]

Get your ideas in fast, the great debate is about to start

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Nothing's your fault. Let's see what your ideas are.

Ah, you're demanding that I lay out my ideas? Like many others on here, I've been doing that on and off for years on these forums.

 

[J Ed]

Get your ideas in soon otherwise the electorate won't be able to see what they look like!

 

[mauvais]

Better ideas then?

Oh I don't know, maybe you could cosh all the lazy, student union-derived, careerist drones of Labour, chuck them into the Thames and replace them with a representative cross section of the population, use that instrument to actually relate to a spectrum of people outside of one specific socio-economic niche, understand and properly illustrate to the people at large the problems that their countrymen face, articulate why it's in everyone's long term interest to resolve them and to build a strong and deeply positive national and even international fabric where social justice is held in high esteem, continuously stick to your principles whilst adapting where necessary to a changing context, and show up your opponents as negative and devious. And then, always taking the electorate to have at least a little sense, see if anyone was interested in that.

Or, Tony Blair again.

 

[BandWagon]

This is going nowhere. I've given my opinions and if people don't like them then that's their option.

 

[DotCommunist]

I like the insinuation the Andrew Marr is on some sort of an intellectual par with DotCommunist.

If he applies himself and works hard he may well reach the lofty heights of me, someone so slow witted he often struggles with things like the laces on the left boot, and basic imperial-metric conversion when reading recipes

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is going nowhere. I've given my opinions and if people don't like them then that's their option.

find someone with hair