Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[killer b]

Some expulsions, political education, and getting a grip of local branches and Momentum might have helped a while ago, now I'm not so sure it can be done. It's a problem in the left outside the Labour party as well, and that's not being dealt with either.

I'm not sure momentum are really a problem - they seem to actually have a reasonable grasp of the situation. It's the aging time-served cranks who're shitting it right up.

Clive Lewis wrote an ok article for the Independent the other day, but it's difficult to imagine such a programme being rolled out under current conditions.

Opinion: I know that Labour can rid itself of antisemitism – here's how

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The solution is to boot out the cranks, if this is soluble. I don't know if it is. I doubt that would be enough to kill it.

Getting rid of anti-semites is important but they are relatively small in number and hold almost no influence or sway in the party. The far bigger problem is that the Ideological divide between Corbyn’s small group of parliamentary allies and the rest of the PLP. Concern about anti-semitism is not the important dividing line between them, neo-liberalism is. Corbyn’s project is anathema to most of the Parliamentary party and even if all traces of anti-semitism were eradicated from the party they would invent another reason to campaign mercilessly against him.

It has been obvious for some time now that Corbyn’s team and Watson’s team cannot Co-exist in the same party. There are 3 solutions to the present impasse: (1) Corbyn is ousted as leader; (2) there is a mass deselection of most of the PLP or (3) the party splits.

 

[brogdale]

you can read 4 articles a month on the LRB before the paywall goes up

Thanks.
Wasn't sure as I'm a (rolling £12 = 12 issues) subscriber & get full archive access.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I'm not sure momentum are really a problem - they seem to actually have a reasonable grasp of the situation. It's the aging time-served cranks who're shitting it right up.

Clive Lewis wrote an ok article for the Independent the other day, but it's difficult to imagine such a programme being rolled out under current conditions.

Opinion: I know that Labour can rid itself of antisemitism – here's how

Depends what you mean by Momentum I think. My impression is that the emerged intellectual class of Momentum have a grasp (although plenty of shit politics still), large swathes of laymembers and some (quite a lot) of specific Momentum branches however...

 

[andysays]

The solution is to boot out the cranks, if this is soluble. I don't know if it is. I doubt that would be enough to kill it.

I assume you mean the antisemitic cranks, and I agree they need to be booted out.

But there are apparently plenty of anti-Corbyn cranks prepared to indulge in ridiculous hyperbole like today's nonsense. It appears that some of them would rather destroy the party than allow the Corbyn leadership to continue, so I'm not sure that it is 'soluble' now.

 

[brogdale]

I assume you mean the antisemitic cranks, and I agree they need to be booted out.

But there are apparently plenty of anti-Corbyn cranks prepared to indulge in ridiculous hyperbole like today's nonsense. It appears that some of them would rather destroy the party than allow the Corbyn leadership to continue, so I'm not sure that it is 'soluble' now.

Not convinced they see their mission as destruction of the party; I'd imagine they believe they're in the process of wresting their party back from the socialists.

 

[killer b]

Those guys were crushed though, politically destroyed. This totally avoidable situation has given them new life.

 

[brogdale]

Those guys were crushed though, politically destroyed.

Think like a psychopath; that's not how they'd perceive their lot.

 

[danny la rouge]

It's a problem in the left outside the Labour party as well, and that's not being dealt with either.

Correct. All we get is “criticism of the actions of the Israeli state does not equal antisemitism” (this is a deflection - it doesn’t necessarily. But criticism of the Israeli state is not the extent of what we’re dealing with), and the non condemnation impulse that seems to come with simplistic statist anti imperialism.

We all need to root it out.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Getting rid of anti-semites is important but they are relatively small in number and hold almost no influence or sway in the party. The far bigger problem is that the Ideological divide between Corbyn’s small group of parliamentary allies and the rest of the PLP. Concern about anti-semitism is not the important dividing line between them, neo-liberalism is. Corbyn’s project is anathema to most of the Parliamentary party and even if all traces of anti-semitism were eradicated from the party they would invent another reason to campaign mercilessly against him.

It has been obvious for some time now that Corbyn’s team and Watson’s team cannot Co-exist in the same party. There are 3 solutions to the present impasse: (1) Corbyn is ousted as leader; (2) there is a mass deselection of most of the PLP or (3) the party splits.

I agree with this in the main but with two important caveats:

1. The AS cranks are small in number and, whilst noisy in the swampy hinterland, hold little real sway. But they aren't the problem. They can, and to some extent are, being booted out. It's the prevarication of Corbyn, and specifically his failure to move his thinking on beyond student politics level crass and reductive understandings of the wider process in respect of Israel. This presents an open goal for those who want to weaponise the issue.

2. I would add a 4th scenario - Corbyn steps down and, preferably McDonnell but someone politically and intellectually signed up to dialing back advanced liberalism, replaces him. Yes, the inherent tensions you identify would remain and at some point will be fought out but McDonnell is a sharper operator that Corbyn, a harder worker on detail and more flexible on peripheral stuff if it means the core economic and social project remains on track.

 

[Mr Moose]

those things jumped the shark years ago

No way! I was just finishing one for this very forum!

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Correct. All we get is “criticism of the actions of the Israeli state does not equal antisemitism” (this is a deflection - it doesn’t necessarily. But criticism of the Israeli state is not the extent of what we’re dealing with), and the non condemnation impulse that seems to come with simplistic statist anti imperialism.

Nail on the head.

 

[LDC]

..

 

[Pickman's model]

..

yeh they're dotty

 

[Mr Moose]

Getting rid of anti-semites is important but they are relatively small in number and hold almost no influence or sway in the party. The far bigger problem is that the Ideological divide between Corbyn’s small group of parliamentary allies and the rest of the PLP. Concern about anti-semitism is not the important dividing line between them, neo-liberalism is. Corbyn’s project is anathema to most of the Parliamentary party and even if all traces of anti-semitism were eradicated from the party they would invent another reason to campaign mercilessly against him.

It has been obvious for some time now that Corbyn’s team and Watson’s team cannot Co-exist in the same party. There are 3 solutions to the present impasse: (1) Corbyn is ousted as leader; (2) there is a mass deselection of most of the PLP or (3) the party splits.

Good post, but is it completely the case? Labour isn’t arguing about policy very much and McDonnell is not signalling some all out attack on capital. There is potential maybe.

I think there are wider disagreements, like Corbyn’s positions he takes on foreign policy and then simply his leadership style. Brexit too of course.

Corbyn has done a lot of good, but in his name the Labour Party has inherited some real flakes who will drag it down. He hasn’t dealt with it and that makes option one by far the easiest and most likely. Yes there will be other reasons, unfair, illogical, discriminatory, just like with Ed Miliband. But that’s why it’s a tough tough job and not one Corbyn appears up to.

 

[killer b]

Worth reading this article in the spectator about the Labour right's current strategy - despite the trouble Corbyn is in, this doesn't seem to be very solid.

Cutting out Corbyn: could Tom Watson’s centrist ‘Momentum’ save Labour? | The Spectator

 

[Proper Tidy]

The labour right, Change UK, all have this wobbly central piece of jigsaw in that they believe they can (and must) rally a grassroots army like Momentum to the clarion call of liberalism. Which as the dominant status quo of last four decades it can't do, it's failing not just domestically but globally, the growth of radical right (and to lesser extent Corbynism, Podemos etc) demonstrates this. Perhaps on wedge issues like remain but as an overarching political movement, nah.

 

[Proper Tidy]

TLr they're trying to fill the vacuum with empty space

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

You're never going to really engage with large numbers of people with a platform of vague centrism are you. If you can keep the electorate sufficiently disengaged you can maybe persuade enough of them to vote for you but they're not going to be out doing the door-knocking etc.

 

[cantsin]

Some expulsions, political education, and getting a grip of local branches and Momentum might have helped a while ago, now I'm not so sure it can be done. It's a problem in the left outside the Labour party as well, and that's not being dealt with either.

Not sure why yr including Momentum in this - the cranks have gone anti Momentum ever since Lansman pulled support for Pete Wilsman off the Mom NEC slate a year ago, Lansman has gone v much the other way, as has Momentum generally - what form wld this ' getting a grip of CLPs / Momentum' take in your view anyway ?

 

[cantsin]

The solution is to boot out the cranks, if this is soluble. I don't know if it is. I doubt that would be enough to kill it.

boot them out from where ? closed Facebook groups ? anonymous twitter accounts ?

ts the risk of repeating myself: they don't exist at 99.9 % of CLP meets / or in real world Labour politcs.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The labour right, Change UK, all have this wobbly central piece of jigsaw in that they believe they can (and must) rally a grassroots army like Momentum to the clarion call of liberalism. Which as the dominant status quo of last four decades it can't do, it's failing not just domestically but globally, the growth of radical right (and to lesser extent Corbynism, Podemos etc) demonstrates this. Perhaps on wedge issues like remain but as an overarching political movement, nah.

The basic problem for the proponents of double liberalism is that their intellectual tank is bone dry. They are therefore reduced to wailing impotently about 'populism' and its dangers.

Their stated appeal - a return to centrist management of advanced liberalism via the injection of social liberalism into economic liberalism - is clapped out through experience (in America, in Europe and in Britain). They cannot move beyond this and the slogans and ideas of Clinton, Blair and so on because the planned next step has collapsed. As such their Remain fanaticism is the total extent of their thinking. They have no strategy beyond this because a) their great hope Macron has cracked under immediate contact with the Gilet Jaune led working class resistance to his attempt push through the agenda of the EU's embedded interests - greater competition, the opening up of the state to privatisation, welfare cuts and austerity measures etc but also b) because they cannot even find space for new ideas within the EU's constitutional constraints because of the relationship between the economic, policy and legal framework of the EU, the EU's deep embedded political economy and the balance of forces within Europe.

 

[Pickman's model]

The basic problem for the proponents of double liberalism is that their intellectual tank is bone dry. They are therefore reduced to wailing impotently about 'populism' and its dangers.

Their stated appeal - a return to centrist management of advanced liberalism via the injection of social liberalism into economic liberalism - is clapped out through experience (in America, in Europe and in Britain). They cannot move beyond this and the slogans and ideas of Clinton, Blair and so on because the planned next step has collapsed. As such their Remain fanaticism is the total extent of their thinking. They have no strategy beyond this because a) their great hope Macron has cracked under immediate contact with the Gilet Jaune led working class resistance to his attempt push through the agenda of the EU's embedded interests - greater competition, the opening up of the state to privatisation, welfare cuts and austerity measures etc but also b) because they find space for new ideas within the EU's constitutional constraints because of the relationship between the policy and legal framework of the EU, the EU's embedded political economy and the balance of forces within Europe.

i think it's because they're a bunch of intellectual featherweights who have no experience of doing a recognisable day's work and have had no real interaction with people outside their class or political bubble.

 

[killer b]

boot them out from where ? closed Facebook groups ? anonymous twitter accounts ?

ts the risk of repeating myself: they don't exist at 99.9 % of CLP meets / or in real world Labour politcs.

That isn't true.

 

[Proper Tidy]

boot them out from where ? closed Facebook groups ? anonymous twitter accounts ?

ts the risk of repeating myself: they don't exist at 99.9 % of CLP meets / or in real world Labour politcs.

Williamson's too apologetic comments were at a Momentum meeting weren't they

 

[Proper Tidy]

The basic problem for the proponents of double liberalism is that their intellectual tank is bone dry. They are therefore reduced to wailing impotently about 'populism' and its dangers.

Their stated appeal - a return to centrist management of advanced liberalism via the injection of social liberalism into economic liberalism - is clapped out through experience (in America, in Europe and in Britain). They cannot move beyond this and the slogans and ideas of Clinton, Blair and so on because the planned next step has collapsed. As such their Remain fanaticism is the total extent of their thinking. They have no strategy beyond this because a) their great hope Macron has cracked under immediate contact with the Gilet Jaune led working class resistance to his attempt push through the agenda of the EU's embedded interests - greater competition, the opening up of the state to privatisation, welfare cuts and austerity measures etc but also b) because they cannot even find space for new ideas within the EU's constitutional constraints because of the relationship between the economic, policy and legal framework of the EU, the EU's deep embedded political economy and the balance of forces within Europe.

Re: Macron - they clung on to his election as evidence that liberalism not dying, ignoring context of it, that it was an unethusiastic vote motivated by fear of FN. Deaf to the political reality

 

[cantsin]

Williamson's too apologetic comments were at a Momentum meeting weren't they

yep, and Momentum rank + file seem divided re: CW - but the leadership have been unequivocal, as have prominent supporters. CW is out, does anyone also want Mom Sheffield expelled ? All members ?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Re: Macron - they clung on to his election as evidence that liberalism not dying, ignoring context of it, that it was an unethusiastic vote motivated by fear of FN. Deaf to the political reality

It was more, I think, a relief that they were still competitive against 'the populists'.

Changing the subject but only slightly, what is truly remarkable in France is that Macron's now critically injured implementation project of EU neo-liberalism and the rebranded fascists are still miles ahead of the left. Instructive for those urging labour to go further in its embrace of the economic and social integration federal Europe project and to dump the working class.

 

[killer b]

the leadership have been unequivocal, as have prominent supporters. CW is out,

Lol what?

 

[cantsin]

Lol what?

Momentum leadership, plus Bastani / OJ / Sarakar etc : no support for CW / + support for his suspension, as the cranks have frothingly noted