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Labour & Anti-Semitism.

That isn't true.
Yeah, its probably only 99% of meetings in reality. Most branch meetings and events are far more boring than that.

The idea that getting rid of the relatively few conspiraloons and cranks will make any difference (even if they could accurately be targetted) is nonsense though. It isn't about the cranks, it's all about Israel. And Corbyn having a slightly more nuanced view on Israel would make absolutely zero difference either. Anything short of wholehearted support for Israel and its 'right to self-defence' is unacceptable and 'anti-semitic.' Nothing Corbyn can do will change that.
 
Getting rid of anti-semites is important but they are relatively small in number and hold almost no influence or sway in the party. The far bigger problem is that the Ideological divide between Corbyn’s small group of parliamentary allies and the rest of the PLP. Concern about anti-semitism is not the important dividing line between them, neo-liberalism is. Corbyn’s project is anathema to most of the Parliamentary party and even if all traces of anti-semitism were eradicated from the party they would invent another reason to campaign mercilessly against him.

It has been obvious for some time now that Corbyn’s team and Watson’s team cannot Co-exist in the same party. There are 3 solutions to the present impasse: (1) Corbyn is ousted as leader; (2) there is a mass deselection of most of the PLP or (3) the party splits.
The reasons it has dragged on for so long is because the people in power im Labour aren't bothered by it and because Corbyn is a useless leader, both need to go.
 
Yeah, its probably only 99% of meetings in reality. Most branch meetings and events are far more boring than that.

The idea that getting rid of the relatively few conspiraloons and cranks will make any difference (even if they could accurately be targetted) is nonsense though. It isn't about the cranks, it's all about Israel. And Corbyn having a slightly more nuanced view on Israel would make absolutely zero difference either. Anything short of wholehearted support for Israel and its 'right to self-defence' is unacceptable and 'anti-semitic.' Nothing Corbyn can do will change that.

hate to say it, but the fact that this comment would now mark you out as AS on soc media tells us a lot about how this has all panned out over the last 4 years.
 
Getting rid of the loons and anti-semites is a pretty good thing in itself - so do it. Defending them because of who has attacked them and who the attacks are really aimed at is a pretty bad thing - so don't do it. This defend this defend that paranoid shouty trot style that seems to set the tone of the more leftish responses to this is very reminiscent of the worst of the old days of SWP chest prodding.
 
It's not paranoia when there really are obvious plots to undermine and discredit Corbyn's leadership. And plenty of the people being accused are actually guilty of fuck all, and so should absolutely be defended. I'm not defending the conspiraloons or those who deny that there is any issue at all, but they are being dealt with, and much more quickly than they were under the hypocrite McNicol.
 
Getting rid of the loons and anti-semites is a pretty good thing in itself - so do it. Defending them because of who has attacked them and who the attacks are really aimed at is a pretty bad thing - so don't do it. This defend this defend that paranoid shouty trot style that seems to set the tone of the more leftish responses to this is very reminiscent of the worst of the old days of SWP chest prodding.
Yes, certainly they should get rid of the loons and anti-semites, stop fucking about. Trouble is, the attacks on Corbyn over anti-Semitism have got conflated with so many other things that they won't stop. There's no way to stop these attacks simply with statements, meetings and policies. It really is, as you say, about flushing those longstanding swp style assumptions and habits of mind, the neo-gallowayism that Corbyn and a lot of the others come out of. And you need to do that before you can start thinking about genuine solidarity with the Palestinians.
 
It's not paranoia when there really are obvious plots to undermine and discredit Corbyn's leadership. And plenty of the people being accused are actually guilty of fuck all, and so should absolutely be defended. I'm not defending the conspiraloons or those who deny that there is any issue at all, but they are being dealt with, and much more quickly than they were under the hypocrite McNicol.
I agree, but the real problem is that too many on 'the left' and the labour left have opened up a space where the anti-corbyn project has been grafted onto anti-Semitism accusations.
 
Yes, certainly they should get rid of the loons and anti-semites, stop fucking about. Trouble is, the attacks on Corbyn over anti-Semitism have got conflated with so many other things that they won't stop. There's no way to stop these attacks simply with statements, meetings and policies. It really is, as you say, about flushing those longstanding swp style assumptions and habits of mind, the neo-gallowayism that Corbyn and a lot of the others come out of. And you need to do that before you can start thinking about genuine solidarity with the Palestinians.
My reading is that there also is no single cause here - say Israel. There is a coalition of people concerned with 'pre-emptive defence' of Israeli interests who think they can do this via a mix of publicising claims of anti-semitism and real semitism and linking them to the leadership centre and then a group of PLP and labour party staff and members who ideologically oppose what Corbyn means for the party, the party that they by and large signed up for and committed to at a time when the left was pretty much a dead force in the party, or who they played a leading role in defeating in the party - and they're happy to go along with the former, but defence or furtherance of Israeli state interests doesn't play a central role in their thinking or actions beyond generic right to exist stuff.

The only ones who think it's solely about Israel are, imo, the loons and their mirror image on the other side - but that seems to have tempted those opposed primarily (or solely) to the latter anti-left stuff into a coalition of their own that centres on defending the loons as reflex - the old trot sectarian defence of the indefensible and the blind-eyeing of stuff that they think they need to keep quiet about for wider interests. See RESPECT, see ongoing stalinism as regards syria and other places. It's like all the criticisms of campism from these traditions have gone into reverse and it's pick a side time, prods chest, pick a side.
 
Getting rid of the loons and anti-semites is a pretty good thing in itself - so do it. Defending them because of who has attacked them and who the attacks are really aimed at is a pretty bad thing - so don't do it. This defend this defend that paranoid shouty trot style that seems to set the tone of the more leftish responses to this is very reminiscent of the worst of the old days of SWP chest prodding.

That’s fine in respect of the shouty onlookers, but there seems to be evidence that the leadership is also finding reasons not to deal with it, even after several opportunities/promises to sort its processes and behaviour.

On the contrary, Labour’s response to last week’s programme seemed to create a wave of further social media conspiraloonacy from the flakes without Corbyn or others in the leadership telling them to STFU.

Yet there is an obdurate loyalty to Corbyn here which is also cultish, our only chance electorally, however flawed, to push back the neo-libs rather than someone whose failings are likely to shut that door.
 
That’s fine in respect of the shouty onlookers, but there seems to be evidence that the leadership is also finding reasons not to deal with it, even after several opportunities/promises to sort its processes and behaviour.

On the contrary, Labour’s response to last week’s programme seemed to create a wave of further social media conspiraloonacy from the flakes without Corbyn or others in the leadership telling them to STFU.

Yet there is an obdurate loyalty to Corbyn here which is also cultish, our only chance electorally, however flawed, to push back the neo-libs rather than someone whose failings are likely to shut that door.

Well, on this i simply do not know. Are the things promised last year being put in place, being carried out - are they having a beneficial effect etc? I don't know how this could be judged yet. I do know that emphasis is being focused on the loons by the coaliton i mentioned above regardless to suggest exactly the above though - that nothing is being done, or what is being done is being done ineptly or deliberately sabotaged - possibly on purpose because of political sympathies with the loons - by a leadership cabal. Frankly, i don't buy that and i've not seen any evidence to support it.

If the party's criticism's of the program are accurate - lines deleted from emails, omitting the content of gen sec interventions in order to give a diametrically opposed view of the intervention and its intention etc then i think they have every right - and no other option - to respond as they have done. I don't think that created the loonery or boosted it. This people just exist. Which is why they need to be gone. The leadership cannot and will not have any impact on them. They are too lost in their jews did this worldview to come back.

After all this, and hating corbyn politically i recognise exactly why people are loyal to him and the promise they see in him - and are right to fight back. But that doesn't mean every fightback has to take the shape of either loonery or any of the more political stuff coming from the ex-hard left.
 
Did she wake up that morning and think "Hmmm, what can I say that will absolutely 100% definitely get me sacked today?" FFS.


she has said it was reported out of context, that she was was talking about a book about how many many leaders have adopted a 'bunker mentality' going back centuries, she came across very considered on R4
 
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LRB is really good, the essay on Grimsby pre 2017 election was excellent, might try and cobble together 12 quid know i know you have back copies included.
Current subscribers get to bestow a free year's subscription to a friend each time they renew, so it's worthwhile doing a callout on the LRB thread to see if anyone is about to renew before parting with the cash (I'd nominate you but I've just done someone else so it'll be another year before mine comes up again...)
 
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Thing is, though, she's got a damned good point, and the response from The Party has been to accuse HER of anti-Semitism, by calling her comment "truly contemptible and grossly offensive to Jewish colleagues in particular", which I see as just yet another example of Labour's deflection tactics - The Party isn't anti-Semitic, so those criticising The Party must be.

Hitler had his critics executed, all Jezza can do - at Milne's behest - is sack them, and why do that if there isn't the tiniest grain of truth in what they're saying…? If they're talking bullshit, then The Party should be able to produce robust evidence that what they're saying isn't true, sacking them rather proves the opposite.

He is rendering - or, most probably has rendered - Labour completely unelectable. What I can foresee happening is that those who have been sacked, and hopefully others will examine their consciences and come to the conclusion that they cannot in good conscience remain a Labour MP, and will resign. This will leave Jezza with - at most - 18 or 20 (guesstimated figure) loyalists.

I think that it's a grave mistake to focus too much on Corbyn, when the driving force is Seumas Milne. I don't believe we can really know what JC thinks about anything - bar Europe - when Milne is telling him what to think. Whilst Jezza has dabbled in Communism (he was a member of the British Communist Party), Milne is a full-blown commie, who lamented the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the demise of the DDR, ("Saying the fall of the Wall was a good thing has become a loyalty test for Germans") and has become an apologist for terrorism, calling the world domination ideology of Al-Qaeda and ISIS "Western disinformation". According to an article he wrote in The Guardian in 2014, Russia's 2014 annexation of Crimea would never have happened if the US and EU hadn't "sponsored the protests to oust the corrupt, but democratically elected, Viktor Yanukovych", a claim for which he has yet to produce any credible evidence (The clash in Crimea is the fruit of western expansion | Seumas Milne).

Corbyn was very much for a two-state solution, in line with the cross-party Friends of Israel group, so I wonder how much his embracing of those who would see Israel annihilated, such as Galloway and Hatton (I don't like Williamson, but I don't know enough to say if he's an anti-Zionist hardliner, or not. I know he's a Holocaust denier, so…) is on the advice of Milne. I don't believe it would be hyperbolic to suggest that Milne is Labour's de facto leader, and Jezza is simply his willing mupp… er puppet). (as an aside, I do think that the FoI need to come up with a better name, one that makes it totally unambiguous that they are NOT supporters of the Netanyahu regime). Milne's strategy is working, as the petition to oust Watson proves; sadly, Corbynistas (or should we perhaps now refer to them as Milneites…?) have drunk deeply of the Kool-Aid (that needs to be Anglicised).

I bet Margaret Beckett is ruing the day she suggested JC be added to the leadership ballot paper "for breadth" (especially as she has been the target of some of the vilest anti-Semitic abuse). Corbyn may not be anti-Semitic, but he's being advised by someone who unashamedly is. Even if he was to sack Milne - which he won't - JC has proven he has zero ability to form policy off his own back.

Oh and another thing, according to Kevin Schofield editor of Politics Home, the Party leadership contacted the BBC to demand that Panorama wasn't aired because, according to Schofield, Labour asked the BBC to: "suspend and reconsider the planned broadcast". The complaint claims that the programme is biased against the party, places "undue influence" on the Equalities and Human Rights Commission's own probe, contains "unsubstantiated allegations", calls on the BBC to do the same exposé into Tory anti-Muslim bias, and claims presenter John Ware "has an anti-Corbyn agenda". Paranoid, much…?

The thread is, as you can probably imagine, filled with the whinings and wailings of Corbynistas. One demands to know how many Jews are employed by the BBC, another claims that the title "Is Labour anti-Semitic?" "gives the assumption to the viewer that Labour is anti-Semitic", and therefore this means that the BBC is biased against Corbyn and Labour.

Labour goes to war with BBC over Panorama probe into anti-semitism in party

Full text: Labour complaint letter to BBC about Panorama antisemitism episode - LabourList

John Ware's response on the Jewish Chronicle website: 'If Labour wants a fight, bring it on,' says Panorama's John Ware

Labour seems to be demanding that any future BBC programmes where it is the subject should be subject to leadership approval. Jezza and Seumas don't like it, it doesn't air. It really is incredibly sinister.
 
I wonder was Corbyn's period in the British Communist Party at some point after he joined the labour party in his teens or before? Or ongoing?
 
Real jews, just doing jew things. Working to achieve their aims. Their hidden malevolent nefarious anti-british aims.

Not state things. Jew things.

Yep. It's our rootless cosmopolitanism that catches us out every time. We can't support the aims of the countries we reside in, because that would contradict our overwhelming need to control the whole world, preferably through finance capitalism and manipulation of the military-industrial complex.
 
LRB is really good, the essay on Grimsby pre 2017 election was excellent, might try and cobble together 12 quid know i know you have back copies included.

Someone with a subscription might be able to get you a freebie 12-month deal.
 
So Facebook's former Chief Security Officer (now Prof at and Director of Stanford Uni's Internet Observatory) often has some interesting stuff to say about political disinformation campaigns.

He's mainly talking about attributing disinformation campaigns in the context of Russia in the linked article, but perhaps some of it is worth considering in this case?



Facebook’s ex-security chief on disinformation campaigns: 'The sexiest explanation is usually not true'

Hard Questions: How Does Facebook Investigate Cyber Threats and Information Operations? | Facebook Newsroom

More complex still when you potentially have multiple sponsors (in this case various groups or organisations who would like to damage Labour's left for their own particular reasons) getting behind (to varying degrees of attributeability perhaps) a broadly similar line of attack that's apparently being picked up and pushed by multiple sets of primary actors.

I still favour William of Ockham's shaving kit methodology when dealing with this stuff.
 
I think kebabking puts it very well.

One might well be able to say Corbyn is an anti-semite, but he's not a Jew-hater (which I see as two different things). The Nazis were not mere anti-semites, they are outright Jew haters. People who think it's clever to mutter about Rothschilds and Zionist conspiracies but say they have nothing against Jews are anti-semites, but not Jew haters.

They may think they're clever, but fortunately for most of us, we know their cleverness is actually crass stupidity. I mean, the old "Rothschild Zionist" line is a trope straight out of David Icke's arsehole.

Corbyn's Labour, to my mind, poses zero existential threat to Jews (and it pisses me off when my co-religionists act as if it does) but it doesn't understand its own anti-semitism and it doesn't really understand who Jews are.

Had an argument with a "revolutionary socialist" (former RCG and AWL member) who is nonetheless a Corbynite. He claimed that the anti-Semitism issue is caused by Jews - not by the state of Israel and its supporters, but by British Jews - to undermine Corbyn. He wouldn't have it that the whole thing was the product of a confluence of a) Corbyn's inability to control Labour Friends of Israel's PLP membership and their (usually) fantasy claims of a/s in the leadership, b) Israel's ambassadors to Britain and their underlings stirring the pot in the media, in order to undermine any British Labour politician who doesn't toe the line, and c), the UK media's own philo-Semitism as a tool to invalidate the idea of even a social-democratic govt - let's face it, Corbyn's socialism is weak, and those who claim he's a dangerous Marxist, Communist or Marxist Communist, are weak in the head.
 
Tracey Ann Obermann was on Victoria Derbyshire, its a hard watch, some of the things she says that (alledgely) Corbyn supporters have said to her are worthy of any Moselyite, 'dirty jew' 'your North London cabal's time is over'

Labour could have been on the brink of power, helping the millions, many whose life is hell, can't forgive them, out they go.

Oberman is a "useful idiot". Most of her interaction with alleged Corbyn supporters is on Twitter, often with "Corbyn supporters" with few followers - usual sign of a bot. I wouldn't piss in her mouth if her back teeth were on fire. She arguably helps foster anti-Semitism with her dingbat attack-dog attitude.
 
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