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Labour & Anti-Semitism.

treelover said:
Tracey Ann Obermann was on Victoria Derbyshire, its a hard watch, some of the things she says that (alledgely) Corbyn supporters have said to her are worthy of any Moselyite, 'dirty jew' 'your North London cabal's time is over'

Labour could have been on the brink of power, helping the millions, many whose life is hell, can't forgive them, out they go.
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Did you know this thread is the only place on the Internet known to Google where the phrase "your north london cabal's time is over" can be found?
 
ViolentPanda said:
T
Had an argument with a "revolutionary socialist" (former RCG and AWL member) who is nonetheless a Corbynite. He claimed that the anti-Semitism issue is caused by Jews - not by the state of Israel and its supporters, but by British Jews - to undermine Corbyn. He wouldn't have it that the whole thing was the product of a confluence of a) Corbyn's inability to control Labour Friends of Israel's PLP membership and their (usually) fantasy claims of a/s in the leadership, b) Israel's ambassadors to Britain and their underlings stirring the pot in the media, in order to undermine any British Labour politician who doesn't toe the line, and c), the UK media's own philo-Semitism as a tool to invalidate the idea of even a social-democratic govt - let's face it, Corbyn's socialism is weak, and those who claim he's a dangerous Marxist, Communist or Marxist Communist, are weak in the head.
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It is frustrating because to me, the anti-semitism in Labour is both real and weaponised. Above all weaponised by the right wing, yes, including right-wing Jews, but it is especially infuriating to see it used as a cosh against socialism by non-Jewish people who don't give a fuck about us otherwise.
 
butchersapron said:
Well, on this i simply do not know. Are the things promised last year being put in place, being carried out - are they having a beneficial effect etc? I don't know how this could be judged yet. I do know that emphasis is being focused on the loons by the coaliton i mentioned above regardless to suggest exactly the above though - that nothing is being done, or what is being done is being done ineptly or deliberately sabotaged - possibly on purpose because of political sympathies with the loons - by a leadership cabal. Frankly, i don't buy that and i've not seen any evidence to support it.

If the party's criticism's of the program are accurate - lines deleted from emails, omitting the content of gen sec interventions in order to give a diametrically opposed view of the intervention and its intention etc then i think they have every right - and no other option - to respond as they have done. I don't think that created the loonery or boosted it. This people just exist. Which is why they need to be gone. The leadership cannot and will not have any impact on them. They are too lost in their jews did this worldview to come back.

After all this, and hating corbyn politically i recognise exactly why people are loyal to him and the promise they see in him - and are right to fight back. But that doesn't mean every fightback has to take the shape of either loonery or any of the more political stuff coming from the ex-hard left.
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To your first point, I’m sure some of them are trying to make a difference. The willingness of many people to revile figures like Jenny Formby or even Seamus Milne, without substantial evidence or process or any kind of window into their minds, is fundamentally unfair.

What troubles me is the apparent dysfunction. Unless some Labyrinthine conspiracy involving the whistleblowers is established (and it won’t be) they are people who must have at some point had enough faith in Labour to want to work there. Now they appear utterly disaffected by the experience. Going public they have simply drawn further condemnation and abuse from the flakes for Jeremy brigade.

It’s a circle of failing with JC at the centre. Most of the antisemitism expressed has a reaction to criticism of JC at its core. I’ve missed it if he has engaged with that. He appears withdrawn much of the time, not able to engage with much of the Jewish community, or to reach out to those who get abused or to control those doing the abusing. That’s not enough. Labour can’t have a leader who is a bigot magnet, whatever his own qualities.

I cannot see how Corbyn can move it on and therefore it’s going to remain there, ready to be amplified a thousand fold on demand by enemies and wasting Labour’s own energy and political capital. I’ve gotten around to hoping the EHRC report may offer just a crumb of comfort by injecting some objectivity but it’s not a great hope.
 
butchersapron said:
My reading is that there also is no single cause here - say Israel. There is a coalition of people concerned with 'pre-emptive defence' of Israeli interests who think they can do this via a mix of publicising claims of anti-semitism and real semitism and linking them to the leadership centre and then a group of PLP and labour party staff and members who ideologically oppose what Corbyn means for the party, the party that they by and large signed up for and committed to at a time when the left was pretty much a dead force in the party, or who they played a leading role in defeating in the party - and they're happy to go along with the former, but defence or furtherance of Israeli state interests doesn't play a central role in their thinking or actions beyond generic right to exist stuff.

The only ones who think it's solely about Israel are, imo, the loons and their mirror image on the other side - but that seems to have tempted those opposed primarily (or solely) to the latter anti-left stuff into a coalition of their own that centres on defending the loons as reflex - the old trot sectarian defence of the indefensible and the blind-eyeing of stuff that they think they need to keep quiet about for wider interests. See RESPECT, see ongoing stalinism as regards syria and other places. It's like all the criticisms of campism from these traditions have gone into reverse and it's pick a side time, prods chest, pick a side.
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Yep, part of this is kind of what I was trying to say in cyber-security speak earlier.

A range of people and groups are making the actual accusations, feeding stories to sympathetic media, running trolling campaigns from both sides of the fence etc.

Different actors are doing this for different reasons, and have access to different kinds of capabilities (e.g. front groups, 'legit' groups, media outlets, disgruntled ex-party functionaries, botnets, fake personas, forums and/or lists where they can mobilise a swarm of people for a particular action)

If something one group is doing is obviously working though, e.g. producing exploitable angrily defensive behaviour, or foot in mouth responses from Labour left figures and/or supporters say, then there's a tendency for other actors to pile on, to adopt and amplify the attack, often causing a further exploitable meltdown and so on.

Separately, there are several groups, your 'coalitions' of pro-Israel and right wing Labour, and I would also argue broader capitalist interests, who are trying to exploit (and may to some degree sponsor) those accusations, media events, trolling campaigns etc.

So for instance, I find it highly unlikely that the neonazis trolling Luciana Berger were a 'Mossad false flag operation', that's loonspud talk. It's much more likely they were actual NA edgelords doing the sort of stuff that those pin-heads like to do.

But the coalitions of interests who exploited their action by consistently attributing all the antisemitc abuse directed at Berger to 'Corbynites', until for many people that became the reality, may well have been motivated by e.g. 'pre-emptive defence of Israel' and/or shifting Labour to the right etc.
 
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killer b said:
Labour have launched this site today - pretty good I think. Or it would have been in 2016 anyway.

https://labour.org.uk/no-place-for-antisemitism/
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No reference to the expulsion of the Palestinians to create Israel in this.The Nakba isn't mentioned in this document.

I see support of One State solution is at end of article said to be not anti Semitic. Which is good to hear as its my position. But its not that clear from reading the complete article whether this is really the case.
 
As one of her final acts Theresa May has appointed John Mann as an independent adviser to the Government on antisemitism

Official statement

He will also collaborate with Lord Pickles, the UK’s Special Envoy for Post-Holocaust Issues, as well as Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, the Special Envoy for Freedom of Religion and Belief, to ensure a consistent approach.
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ok fair enough, i dont know enough about the subject to give a reasoned comment, but just saw it on another forum and ( digital spy :facepalm:) and wondered what others might think
 
Here's the cunt in Birmingham supporting the anti-LGBT school protests there and going on about the LGBT lobby and indoctrination of children. It took me 30 seconds to check up on him. Skwawkbox are scum.

 
I took part in the Big Ride for Palestine a few weekends ago. It was this year in London and in Manchester. As I cyclist I though it was great and there was a lot of support from passers by in the London route.

A local church in Bethnal Green hosted the riders at the end. Tower Hamlets Council had been asked but turned this down.

An FOI request by the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign found that the real reason for this was that Tower Hamlets has adopted the IHRA definition and emails showed the Council thought this ride contravened the IHRA. But they didn't want to say this publicly.

UK council refused to host Palestinian event over antisemitism fears

Some local London Labour Councils have adopted the IHRA definition plus examples for the area they are in charge in. This isn't just about adopting it for the local Labour party membership.

So non Labour party members like me can still be affected by it. Depending on where we live. In my case Lambeth which has done the same as Tower Hamlets.


After looking at the text of the website, an official, whose name was redacted from the released emails, wrote: “It seems therefore, that although the application form raises no issues, the contents of their website does raise the risk that the event will fall foul of the position the council has adopted.”

In a separate email, the council’s head of sports, leisure and culture said she felt the event should be refused because “the council has recently adopted the [IHRA] definition of antisemitism and there are concerns about the content of the organisation’s website with regard to this”.
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The whole route of the bike ride had been agreed with the police. So no issue with the Met. This was a well organised event.

https://www.thebigride4palestine.com/

It was this section of the website:


The Big Ride for Palestine is opposed to all forms of racism, which includes Islamophobia and anti-Semitism. Active opposition to the crimes of the Israeli state is a responsibility, just as opposition to South African apartheid was a moral and political imperative for many. The pro-Israeli lobby has been very successful in silencing criticism of Israel by consciously conflating criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism. Our opposition is to the actions of the Israeli state, not Jewish people.
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The Big Ride for Palestine is opposed to all forms of racism, which includes Islamophobia and anti-Semitism. Active opposition to the crimes of the Israeli state is a responsibility, just as opposition to South African apartheid was a moral and political imperative for many. The pro-Israeli lobby has been very successful in silencing criticism of Israel by consciously conflating criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism. Our opposition is to the actions of the Israeli state, not Jewish people.
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why put that in, just have the ride, speaks for itself.
 
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