I support him and I'm quite happy to make that point. It is tbh
Labour & Anti-Semitism.
- Thread starter cantsin
- Start date
Treacle Toes
Time
Same thing with Anti-Black racism and Islamaphobia...this stuff is obvious.
Treacle Toes
Time
He's talking about what happens when the 'party' is accused of racism.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Yes, but he has left himself wide open to a different interpretation (the one JTG is making). That's what's clumsy.
Treacle Toes
Time
Treacle Toes
Time
What he said is clear and it's not a new idea or analysis about how the LP and TP deal with accusations of bigotry. It's literally expected from the Tories afterall. It causes an existential crisis and division when leveled at the LP...this is what is happening.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
The Labour party is, currently and topically, divided. Rosen is clearly on one side of that divide, i.e. the side that doesn't believe Corbyn is being fairly treated. However what he says about it can, and has been, just above, interpreted as meaning the party is divided, broadly, between racists and non-racists. That can't be a correct interpretation, because the racists in that scenario could only be the Corbynites, and it is unlikely that Rosen classes himself as one of the racists.Eh?
Explain this to me please
However, what Rosen says in his tweet is quite easy to interpret in that way, particularly if someone comes to the tweet not knowing Rosen's politics. So, it could have been better put.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
But he is recovering from a life threatening illness, so I'm prepared to be somewhat forgiving in this instance.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Fair comment. I was only really suggesting this should count as a first strike, not an immediate birching.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
He doesn't say or imply 'half' but that basically is what he's saying, yes. And he's contrasting Labour with the Tory party, where such issues don't divide the party, despite their issues wrt racism and bigotry being far more serious and entrenched than those in Labour, which leaves anyone who criticises the tories for racism from within the tory party ostracised, giving the example of Warsi. Basically, the tories are virtually all in the 'no, no, this is fine' camp to the extent that it is the orthodoxy, whereas in Labour it very much isn't.
And he's right.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
But all that assumes that there is a pre-existing objective 'Platonic' truth of racism. Some people think Corbyn is racist, for instance, while others don't. So it's not just a divide between racists and non-racists. It's far more complicated and contested than that. The debate about what exactly constitutes anti-Semtism wrt criticism of Israel is contested within Labour. It's contested on here in this thread.
ska invita
back on the other side
Former Momentum chief suspended by Labour over ‘anti-Semitic post’
A former national treasurer of Momentum and serving Labour councillor has been suspended by the party after a social media post in which he said there was “no factual basis whatsoever for a Jewish race”.
www.standard.co.uk
" In it, he linked in work by Israeli historian Shlomo Sand and wrote: “The invention of the Jewish people. This is an absolutely ‘must read’ for everyone who wants truth and justice for Palestine/Israel. The essential historical evidence will amaze you — there is no factual basis whatsoever for a Jewish race, nation or homeland, it is all recently invented propaganda called ‘Zionism’.”
---Sand's book is published by Verso and I therefore expect it to be solidly researched. Thoughts? Seems legit to me:
The Invention of the Jewish People
A historical tour de force, The Invention of the Jewish People offers a groundbreaking account of Jewish and Israeli history. Exploding the myth that there was a forced Jewish exile in the first century at the hands of the Romans, Israeli historian Shlomo Sand argues that most modern Jews...
www.versobooks.com
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
FFS, it's not accusations of racism dividing the left in the symour piece, it's racism in the left. Left-racism. He literally talks about the form that left-racism takes, not accusations of racism. As does Rosen's pathetic echo. Which at least has the virtue of making an effort to look things in the face.
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brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
The fundamental problem with the Seymour piece is that it appears predicated upon a hypothetical:
The analysis that follows is an account of how that hypothetical might be exploited by opponents.
But, as you say, the LP (specifically) has been divided by really existing left racism and the 'accusations' (calling out) and the undoubted political weaponisation of that racism by their opponents.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
As the concept of race is a social construct (outside of the human race, that is), then the same could be said of any "race". But then I guess that's not the point of such comments really.
bimble
floofy
ska invita I liked that book. Found it quite exciting when I read it ages ago. But its central idea (that a lot of jews might be descended from the Khazars (who converted en masse) has been used to prop up all manner of weird stuff. And that endorsement from whoever it is an example of that, its not a book review, and it’s definitely nuts to say the whole idea of ‘the Jewish people’ is a “recently invented propaganda called Zionism”. That’s just very odd.
Former Momentum chief suspended by Labour over ‘anti-Semitic post’
A former national treasurer of Momentum and serving Labour councillor has been suspended by the party after a social media post in which he said there was “no factual basis whatsoever for a Jewish race”.
" In it, he linked in work by Israeli historian Shlomo Sand and wrote: “The invention of the Jewish people. This is an absolutely ‘must read’ for everyone who wants truth and justice for Palestine/Israel. The essential historical evidence will amaze you — there is no factual basis whatsoever for a Jewish race, nation or homeland, it is all recently invented propaganda called ‘Zionism’.”
---Sand's book is published by Verso and I therefore expect it to be solidly researched. Thoughts? Seems legit to me:
The Invention of the Jewish People
A historical tour de force, The Invention of the Jewish People offers a groundbreaking account of Jewish and Israeli history. Exploding the myth that there was a forced Jewish exile in the first century at the hands of the Romans, Israeli historian Shlomo Sand argues that most modern Jews...
From which I learn
1. the bar for being suspended by the Labour Party for anti Semitism is very, very low. Lower I would suggest than for, say, Islamophobia or any other form of racism. Which essentially is marking out Jewish people for different treatment to others, which is problematic in a whole number of ways.
2. if you read a book which you find surprisingly revelatory in support of your pre existing views, on a subject you have no expertise of, have the common sense to realise that there might be a conflicting view, find out what it is and draw conclusions. Be wary of confirmation bias and rushing to judgement.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Former Momentum chief suspended by Labour over ‘anti-Semitic post’
A former national treasurer of Momentum and serving Labour councillor has been suspended by the party after a social media post in which he said there was “no factual basis whatsoever for a Jewish race”.
" In it, he linked in work by Israeli historian Shlomo Sand and wrote: “The invention of the Jewish people. This is an absolutely ‘must read’ for everyone who wants truth and justice for Palestine/Israel. The essential historical evidence will amaze you — there is no factual basis whatsoever for a Jewish race, nation or homeland, it is all recently invented propaganda called ‘Zionism’.”
---Sand's book is published by Verso and I therefore expect it to be solidly researched. Thoughts? Seems legit to me:
The Invention of the Jewish People
A historical tour de force, The Invention of the Jewish People offers a groundbreaking account of Jewish and Israeli history. Exploding the myth that there was a forced Jewish exile in the first century at the hands of the Romans, Israeli historian Shlomo Sand argues that most modern Jews...
There's no 'factual basis' for any ethnic, national or cultural group you care to name. No basis besides lived experience and collective imagination; both of which have extremely factual consequences.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Wonder what would have happened if he'd said there's no factual basis for a white raceFormer Momentum chief suspended by Labour over ‘anti-Semitic post’
A former national treasurer of Momentum and serving Labour councillor has been suspended by the party after a social media post in which he said there was “no factual basis whatsoever for a Jewish race”.
" In it, he linked in work by Israeli historian Shlomo Sand and wrote: “The invention of the Jewish people. This is an absolutely ‘must read’ for everyone who wants truth and justice for Palestine/Israel. The essential historical evidence will amaze you — there is no factual basis whatsoever for a Jewish race, nation or homeland, it is all recently invented propaganda called ‘Zionism’.”
---Sand's book is published by Verso and I therefore expect it to be solidly researched. Thoughts? Seems legit to me:
The Invention of the Jewish People
A historical tour de force, The Invention of the Jewish People offers a groundbreaking account of Jewish and Israeli history. Exploding the myth that there was a forced Jewish exile in the first century at the hands of the Romans, Israeli historian Shlomo Sand argues that most modern Jews...
unreal.
Maybe some cretin sabotaging the momentum movement.
I dunno so much about momentum apart from their PR stuff and I know a couple of good guys involved. I also know a few cynical grab-all gobshites involved.
ska invita
back on the other side
Jewsih Chronicle write up - looks like another disgraceful suspension
Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi, a senior official in the Jewish Voice For Labour group, has been suspended by Labour following a JC report on her conduct in a meeting of Chingford and Woodford Green Labour Party.
The JC understands that Ms Wimborne-Idrissi, who is vice-chair of the East London CLP, and the chair, Gary Lafley, have been informed they are administratively suspended from Sir Keir Starmer’s party pending an investigation.
At Monday’s meeting of the local party, the JVL media officer had backed claims about the “weaponisation” of antisemitism allegations within Labour.
When members of the local Labour Party, including members of the Jewish Labour Movement, remarked that they were uncomfortable with the speeches by Ms Wimborne-Idrissi and the chair Mr Lafley, she wrote: “I’m just horrified to see people saying in the chat that they feel ‘uncomfortable’.
“I feel obliged to say well yeah, I feel uncomfortable that people are saying they’re uncomfortable. What is this? We are in a political party. We have views, some of them very strongly held.”
A further transcript of her speech at the online meeting confirms that she also criticised General Secretary David Evans’ move to protect Jewish members of the party by banning the discussion of pro-Jeremy Corbyn motions and discussion of the EHRC report in meetings, after reminding CLPs that the party had accepted the recommendations in full.
But in her speech, Ms Wimborne-Idrissi said: “The idea – and I have to mention it – the idea that Jewish people require for their comfort that whole swathes of subjects should not be debated by the membership of this party is insulting to Jewish people.
“And I know there are some Jews in this meeting who will say ‘No No I think it’s wonderful.’ This is a dangerous road. Do we really want us Jewish members to be seen as gatekeepers – as people who prevent others from discussing issues of importance? This is serious stuff, comrades.”
Ms Wimborne-Idrissi also claimed it was allies of the former leader, such as herself, who now felt uncomfortable in the party.
She said: “Yes, I feel uncomfortable. I feel bloody uncomfortable seeing damned good comrades and friends of mine being suspended from this party for doing nothing more than trying to discuss the questions which led to Jeremy Corbyn’s unjust suspension – we know it was unjust because he was readmitted – and then the question of the whip being taken from him which is almost certainly unconstitutional in the party.”
As a leading figure in JVL, Ms Wimborne-Idrissi has regularly spoken out to defend Mr Corbyn over the antisemitism crisis under his leadership.
She provoked anger in the community in February 2019, attacking the decision of the former Labour MP Luciana Berger to quit the party over antisemitism.
Speaking on LBC radio she defended Mr Corbyn over his response to the antisemitic mural in Tower Hamlets, which had been raised by Ms Berger.
Ms Wimborne-Idrissi said: "He thought the artist was being censored unfairly... If people were honest, including Luciana Berger, who dredged this up at the apposite moment to suit her anti-Corbyn agenda."
In a recent video, she claimed she was attacked for campaigning for the Palestinians with allegations she was “the wrong type of Jew, not a proper Jew” and “a kapo”.
Meanwhile in his own speech at Monday’s meeting, chair Mr Lafley openly attacked the Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer in his speech.
He said: “It is Keir Starmer, not Jeremy Corbyn, who is in breach of party rules. It is Starmer, not Corbyn, who is in breach of the EHRC report, where Ch3 page 27 explicitly defends the rights of party members to question the scale of antisemitism within the Party, based on their experience.
“It is Starmer, not Corbyn, who is in breach of the Human Rights Act 1998. It is Starmer, not Corbyn, who is in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights. And it is Starmer, not Corbyn, who has plunged the party into internecine warfare, when we should be exposing and combatting this vile class-driven, corrupt government, something we should have been doing for 11 months.”
The JC contacted Ms Wimborne-Idrissi and asked her to criticise Mr Lafley’s remarks, but she did not respond.
On Tuesday, Labour members confirmed to the JC that they considered the meeting to have been a “deeply unpleasant environment.”
They criticised the “combative” speeches of both the chair and vice-chair which “opened the floodgates” to further aggressive speeches at the meeting.
An earlier message sent to all CLPs by Labour General Secretary Mr Evans had noted that “it has become clear that motions around this issue (including expressions of solidarity, views around the ongoing process in relation to the Parliamentary whip, and/or the power of the General Secretary or the NEC to issue guidance in relation to discussion of this issue) are providing a flashpoint for the expression of views that undermine the Labour Party’s ability to provide a safe and welcoming space for all members, in particular our Jewish members.
“Therefore all motions which touch on these issues must be ruled out of order.”
On Thursday a Labour spokesperson told the JC: “The Labour Party takes all complaints seriously and they are fully investigated in line with our rules and procedures and any appropriate action is taken.”
The JC contacted Ms Wimborne-Idrissi and Mr Lafley for comment on their suspension.
Treacle Toes
Time
DDN has reposted this again today...being circulating for a bit already. I am sure it didn't endear her to some.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Sigh
cantsin
Well-Known Member
another jewish member suspended :
www.labouragainstthewitchhunt.org
Moshé Machover: Open Letter on my suspension – Labour against the witch-hunt
www.labouragainstthewitchhunt.org
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Jews who don't want the Palestinians colonised and ethnically cleansed are despised by the Zionist and Starmer cliques.
steveseagull
Well-Known Member
I did not realise the 'New Leadership' had a whole day set aside for rooting out the Jews with the wrong sort of views. Quite amazing. In plain sight as well.
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