Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[tim]

Maybe, but maybe not. The next election is four years of Tory whoppers away.

And Tory splits: Johnson can dump all those who don't like his Covid policies and the inevitable compromises he is going to make with the EU now that he has a dependable coalition partner.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Read the next bit I quoted about what he said of it later. They were, in his opinion, being disingenuous in pretending not to understand the irony that had been employed by the speaker in order to have a go at him. He himself is employing irony here in identifying their two problems.

I don't like that quote much. It's unpleasant, although I wasn't there to see how unpleasant the people who provoked it were. But it isn't what you're making it out to be.

Was he also being ironic with the qualifier: "having lived in this country, probably all their lives", but he was provoked into it?. You're being very lenient there.

 

[Shechemite]

Main thing I’m taking away from this whole shitshow of everyone talking about antisemitism on the left for the last several years is that it has not actually helped at all to either get people to spot it or to reduce its prevalence, i think it’s achieved the opposite. Good times.

it certainly hasn’t stopped Williamson from claiming Hodge ‘is on planet Zog’

 

[Plumdaff]

I don't think its going to split - as you say there are enough people, who are organized enough, to take it back and ironically the ECHR's call for an independent complaints system is going to mean a purge from the right isn't (or shouldn't) going to be possible.

Plus of course Starmer winning the leadership election hasn't made the right any better at politics, any more popular inside or outside the party or most importantly twenty points ahead of the worst government of our lifetime. In fact the tactic is probably to get people to quit, which is the same tactic as they tried in 2016 and were shocked to find didn't happen.

Do you honestly think they will implement an independent complaints system before purging the left? They won't, and no one will hold them to account for not doing so, just as the worst offenders when it comes to the mismanagement and tolerance of antisemitism in the party have never been held to account because otherwise they have the 'right' politics. Because to the media, to the 'sensible' politicians, it doesn't matter beyond its use as a political tool. There'll be people in head office now going through social media looking for people to suspend, and they'll ignore racism and antisemitism if it suits them, just like they always have. It's deeply cynical, awful stuff, but it's what will happen. They are absolutely shit at politics, but they are brilliant at maintaining control of the Labour Party (and, to be fair, the left was really shit and gaining control of it, even when it had the upper hand). It's one of the reasons it was in such an awful state to begin with. That doesn't matter. What matters is we can get back to deluding ourselves it's 2012 again.

 

[Sprocket.]

What a utter shit show. I expect no less.

 

[butchersapron]

Do you honestly think they will implement an independent complaints system before purging the left? They won't, and no one will hold them to account for not doing so, just as the worst offenders when it comes to the mismanagement and tolerance of antisemitism in the party have never been held to account because otherwise they have the 'right' politics. Because to the media, to the 'sensible' politicians, it doesn't matter beyond its use as a political tool. There'll be people in head office now going through social media looking for people to suspend, and they'll ignore racism and antisemitism if it suits them, just like they always have. It's deeply cynical, awful stuff, but it's what will happen. They are absolutely shit at politics, but they are brilliant at maintaining control of the Labour Party (and, to be fair, the left was really shit and gaining control of it, even when it had the upper hand). It's one of the reasons it was in such an awful state to begin with. That doesn't matter. What matters is we can get back to deluding ourselves it's 2012 again.

We'd been told the left had won all these positions in the party - controlling all the key positions NEC majority etc. That this was what as possible if only tried. That the left centre of dominance was future-proofed. Or did i imagine all that? (Not by you personally pd).

 

[ska invita]

Lucky there's nothing much going on in the country that might require a functional opposition holding the government to account instead of engaging in an endless, absurd factional struggle isn't it?

its not absurd ⚒ the struggle is real

After the last two elections where the right of the party went out their way to lose, appeals to unity are going to ring pretty fucking hollow.

THere hasnt been a single appeal to unity since he became leader

 

[Leighsw2]

‘Whiteness’ is the real racism.

BAMEs (a concept that excludes Jews) are victims of this real racism.

As Jews aren’t BAME, it’s not racist to, for example, paint a mural of a bunch of Jews around a monopoly board under a Freemason image.

just as it’s not really racist to claim that Jews were the chef financiers of the slave trade.

'Black and minority ethnic' - clearly, jews are an ethnic minority in Britain. The fact that most, though not all, are white is immaterial. Irish (which is also my heritage) can also be included in this. Talking about "the BAMES" is clearly disparaging, though I imagine this is where centrists end up with their obnoxious hierarchy of oppression.

"...a mural of a bunch of Jews around a monopoly board" - you can't even get that right. Of the six individuals around the board, two were jewish, four were not - Lord Rothschild, John D. Rockefeller, J. P. Morgan, Aleister Crowley, Andrew Carnegie and Paul Warburg. Of the two that were, the artist and his supporters argue that figures depict "the elite banker cartel" with deliberately exaggerated features.

Not to my taste admittedly, I think you're on dicey ground the minute you started depicting any jewish person with exaggerated features, even a banker. However, I'm sure that future historians will marvel at how a totally obscure mural on a wall in east London, that vanished years before and no one had ever seen, ended up helping to cement the hard right into power in Britain for decades.

 

[SpookyFrank]

‘Whiteness’ is the real racism.

BAMEs (a concept that excludes Jews) are victims of this real racism.

As Jews aren’t BAME, it’s not racist to, for example, paint a mural of a bunch of Jews around a monopoly board under a Freemason image.

just as it’s not really racist to claim that Jews were the chef financiers of the slave trade.

Do you even know what the fuck you think you're on about?

 

[butchersapron]

'Black and minority ethnic' - clearly, jews are an ethnic minority in Britain. The fact that most, though not all, are white is immaterial. Irish (which is also my heritage) can also be included in this. Talking about "the BAMES" is clearly disparaging, though I image this is where centrists end up with their obnoxious hierarchy of oppression.

"...a mural of a bunch of Jews around a monopoly board" - you can't even get that right. Of the six individuals around the board, two were jewish, four were not - Lord Rothschild, John D. Rockefeller, J. P. Morgan, Aleister Crowley, Andrew Carnegie and Paul Warburg. Of the two that were, the artist and his supporters argue that figures depict "the elite banker cartel" with deliberately exaggerated features.

Not to my taste admittedly, I think you're on dicey ground the minute you started depicting any jewish person with exaggerated features, even a banker. However, I'm sure that future historians will marvel at how a total obscure mural on a wall in east London, that vanished years before and no one had ever seen, ended up helping to cement the hard right into power in Britain for decades.

Jesus

 

[Raheem]

I don't think its going to split - as you say there are enough people, who are organized enough, to take it back and ironically the ECHR's call for an independent complaints system is going to mean a purge from the right isn't (or shouldn't) going to be possible.

A self-purge from the left, though (?)

(I also think it's entirely conceivable that Labour might not take a rigorous, line-by-line approach in responding to the report.)

 

[Plumdaff]

We'd been told the left had won all these positions in the party - controlling all the key positions NEC majority etc. That this was what as possible if only tried. That the left centre of dominance was future-proofed. Or did i imagine all that? (Not by you personally pd).

The party staff, the PLP, many CLPs and the councils weren't controlled by the left though, and weren't in the mood for unity. Turns out that was an issue.

 

[Leighsw2]

Jesus

And your point?

 

[butchersapron]

The party staff, the PLP, many CLPs and the councils weren't controlled by the left though, and weren't in the mood for unity. Turns out that was an issue.

They didn't have any control or say over what happened today. I was told winning the centre - the admin/exec positions - the ones that actually matter, had been done.

 

[butchersapron]

And your point?

That you - even today, and in defence of the suggestion that it was faked/ramped up etc - are still offering ammunition to 'the enemy' by pretending that that mural is in any way challengingly ambiguous when it's appalling nature was belatedly recognised by Corbyn himself. You lot are are going to stink the place out for a long time yet aren't you?

 

[Idris2002]

I see on twatter (the social media site for twats) the claim that the party centre have "not actually decided the ground's for suspension" and that Corbo's statement was agreed with the leader's office.

 

[Leighsw2]

That you - even today, and in defence of the suggestion that it was faked/ramped up etc - are still offering ammunition to 'the enemy' by pretending that that mural as in any way challengingly ambiguous when it's appalling nature was belatedly recognised by Corbyn himself. You lot are are going to stink the place out for a long time yet aren't you?

Interesting - very centrist snowflake aren't we? I was merely responding factually to correct the two misleading statements of your centrist friend. Firstly that BAME doesn't include jews because they are white and secondly that the mural depicted a "bunch of jews". Neither is correct, as I pointed out. But I do enjoy your hysterical centrist response - very typical of the mindset that has handed power in this country to the Tories for many years to come, alas.

 

[butchersapron]

Interesting - very centrist snowflake aren't we? I was merely responding factually to correct the two misleading statements of your centrist friend. Firstly that BAME doesn't include jews because they are white and secondly that the mural depicted a "bunch of jews". Neither is correct, as I pointed out. But I do enjoy your hysterical centrist response - very typical of the mindset that has handed power in this country to the Tories for many years to come, alas.

Oh yes. Perfect.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

lol

Yeah butchers, you centrist snowflake.

 

[Leighsw2]

And, the demonstration, yet again, that centrists are not 'liberals' as all, but highly intolerant, authoritarian and factional.

 

[butchersapron]

Jesus

 

[tommers]

Hahaha, that's cheered me up anyway.

 

[Leighsw2]

Sadly, your attachment does not display.....

 

[butchersapron]

Sadly, your attachment does not display.....

It's ok, i guess you'd think it might not mean anything anyway.

 

[Mr Moose]

lol

Yeah butchers, you centrist snowflake.

That’s his new signature right there.

 

[Shechemite]

Do you even know what the fuck you think you're on about?

why do you think Oxford BLM (made famous by Sasha Johnson) found themselves ‘accidentally‘ promoting the very Mural that got poor jezza into so much grief?

You don’t think that the struggle against ‘whiteness’ contains plenty of resentful and bonkers antisemites? That the attempt to cast racism as ‘whiteness’ provides a nice excuse to justify antisemitic racism on the basis that Jews are white? That this isn’t a one of the drivers behind the defence/promotion of antisemtism on the left?

defend antisemites against the ‘real racists’

 

[19force8]

.

We'd been told the left had won all these positions in the party - controlling all the key positions NEC majority etc. That this was what as possible if only tried. That the left centre of dominance was future-proofed. Or did i imagine all that? (Not by you personally pd).

Really?

What are they on where you are?

In the West Midlands it was always clear it would have to be a generational project to clear out the phenomenally corrupt cabal of regional officials, labour clubs and "societies". I mean I'm as cynical as the next socialist, but I was truly shocked by how bad it was and still is. And I was a member of the GMB (still am, retired)

 

[butchersapron]

.

Really?

What are they on where you are?

In the West Midlands it was always clear it would have to be a generational project to clear out the phenomenally corrupt cabal of regional officials, labour clubs and "societies". I mean I'm as cynical as the next socialist, but I was truly shocked by how bad it was and still is. And I was a member of the GMB (still am, retired)

On here - NEC elections etc over and over. In line with a a top-down then fill in the gaps plan. I'm not joking.

 

[19force8]

Yeah, winning the NEC was an important step, but the right had such deep roots. Also, we were far too soft. Well I'm out of it now

 

[toblerone3]

Is there still any point in reading the EHRC report or has the debate moved on to Corbyn's comment and subsequent suspension? Wondering how the report covered the alleged delays in dealing with complaints about anti-semitic abuse by those on the right in the party seeking to damage Corbyn.