Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[Pickman's model]

If a (successful) movement against racism is what ‘defeated the left’, it doesn’t say much of the Left

Define successful

 

[Shechemite]

transparently irrational and mad.

Are you taking your meds?

Have you taken yours?

Corbyn fan faces jail after bombarding MPs with anti-Semitic abuse

Nicolas Nelson, 31, of Norfolk, targeted Dame Margaret Hodge, Dame Louise Ellman and Lord John Mann, who he called 'c****' and said should die.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[gsv]

the very fact he was close to Jewish Voice for Labour underlines he was not anti-Semitic.

No wonder – Jewish Voice for Labour was set up all the way back in 2017 to support the Corbyn leadership against allegations of anti-semitism. Compare with the submission by Jewish Labour Movement (set up in 1903) to the EHRC, that was damning to the core.

What his Zionist critics didn’t like is that he talked to the wrong kind of Jews: ie anti-Zionists

What his Jewish critics don't like is that he's an old-fashioned leftist anti-semite.

 

[Shechemite]

Define successful

1) put the boot into a lot of racists
2) resulted in a more developed analysis of racism (and how antisemitism fits into this)
3) antisemtism in Britain is more stigmatised than it was previously

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No wonder – Jewish Voice for Labour was set up all the way back in 2017 to support the Corbyn leadership against allegations of anti-semitism. Compare with the submission by Jewish Labour Movement (set up in 1903) to the EHRC, that was damning to the core.

And here's what they have said today, repeating the false impression Starmer gave that Corbyn had denied anti-semitism.

Denial of antisemitism is part of the problem. Keir Starmer made that clear and said that he would act and that it would have no place in the Labour Party. He has taken responsibility and the Labour Party has acted.

Not an accidental choice of words either.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Do you reject his explanation? If so, why?

In the stuff I quoted, he himself says that he is now more careful about when he uses the word 'zionist' because of the way it is now used as code by antisemites. How is that 'blind'????

You've been fundamentally dishonest here. Not good.

It’s the combination of labelling some people as zionists and saying that they don’t understand English irony that I have a problem with. It’s a strange thing for an anti racist to come out with.

 

[Pickman's model]

No wonder – Jewish Voice for Labour was set up all the way back in 2017 to support the Corbyn leadership against allegations of anti-semitism. Compare with the submission by Jewish Labour Movement (set up in 1903) to the EHRC, that was damning to the core.


What his Jewish critics don't like is that he's an old-fashioned leftist anti-semite.

Having seen they have Margaret Hodge, the paedos' friend, as their parliamentary chair, their close association with the Israeli labour party and affiliation with all manner of Zionist organizations I suspect they would have had a good go at JC even if there hadn't been any cases of anti-semitism identified

 

[Shechemite]

Has it ever occurred to the left that ordinary people actually quite like the Jews? And that by painting Jews as ‘white’ - and therefore not subject to real racism (you know, the sort that the BAMEs get) - you just further advertise our virtue to those who aren’t into this ‘white lives don’t matter’ crap?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It’s the combination of labelling some people as zionists and saying that they don’t understand English irony that I have a problem with. It’s a strange thing for an anti racist to come out with.

You can't be this thick. He was very precisely claiming that they did understand English irony. This specific group of people who harranged the Palestinian ambassador with, in his opinion, a thoroughly dishonest interpretation of what he had said.

 

[Pickman's model]

1) put the boot into a lot of racists
2) resulted in a more developed analysis of racism (and how antisemitism fits into this)
3) antisemtism in Britain is more stigmatised than it was previously

Could you expand points 1) and 2) pls, esp about the boot being put into racists and the development of this analysis of racism and how a-s fits into this.

 

[two sheds]

Has it ever occurred to the left that ordinary people actually quite like the Jews? And that by painting Jews as ‘white’ - and therefore not subject to real racism (you know, the sort that the BAMEs get) - you just further advertise our virtue to those who aren’t into this ‘white lives don’t matter’ crap?

Has it ever occurred to you that the overwhelming majority of the left actually quite like the Jews, too? It's the far right that they need to be concerned about, and this whole shitshow increases the danger.

 

[gsv]

And here's what they have said today...stuff...

Not an accidental choice of words either.

I have absolutely no idea what you're getting at.

 

[Rimbaud]

Labour Party surely going to split up over this.

There are 300,000 members who joined for Corbyn and a well organised left in Momentum. There's enough size and credibility to create a new party, larger than Labour, and take Union funding too.

After the last two elections where the right of the party went out their way to lose, appeals to unity are going to ring pretty fucking hollow.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Has it ever occurred to the left that ordinary people actually quite like the Jews? And that by painting Jews as ‘white’ - and therefore not subject to real racism (you know, the sort that the BAMEs get) - you just further advertise our virtue to those who aren’t into this ‘white lives don’t matter’ crap?

Who is claiming this?

 

[Pickman's model]

Has it ever occurred to the left that ordinary people actually quite like the Jews? And that by painting Jews as ‘white’ and therefore not subject to real racism (you know, the sort that the BAMEs get), you just further advertise our virtue to those who aren’t into this ‘white lives don’t matter’ crap?

No one has ever come up to me in a pub and told me how much they like the Jews

But I've encountered several people over the years who unprompted told me of their great dislike for them

Btw do you think there's no racism in the UK against Poles? They may be white but there's been vicious racist attacks against them since 2016

 

[two sheds]

Labour Party surely going to split up over this.

There are 300,000 members who joined for Corbyn and a well organised left in Momentum. There's enough size and credibility to create a new party, larger than Labour, and take Union funding too.

After the last two elections where the right of the party went out their way to lose, appeals to unity are going to ring pretty fucking hollow.

But, but, but ...

"Sir Keir Starmer said he visited Scotland to help "unite and unify" Labour, insisting it is time for the party to "pull together" and focus on the job in hand."

 

[Pickman's model]

But, but, but ...

"Sir Keir Starmer said he visited Scotland to help "unite and unify" Labour, insisting it is time for the party to "pull together" and focus on the job in hand."

I have him scheduled to visit grytviken in the next few months

 

[teqniq]

Yes, funny that.

 

[bimble]

Has it ever occurred to you that the overwhelming majority of the left actually quite like the Jews, too? It's the far right that they need to be concerned about, and this whole shitshow increases the danger.

we can be concerned about both at the same time! Its a skill we have developed, takes practice i suppose.

 

[sleaterkinney]

You can't be this thick. He was very precisely claiming that they did understand English irony. This specific group of people who harranged the Palestinian ambassador with, in his opinion, a thoroughly dishonest interpretation of what he had said.

What?

This was dutifully recorded by the, thankfully silent, Zionists who were in the audience on that occasion, and then came up and berated him afterwards for what he had said.
They clearly have two problems. One is that they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What?

Read the next bit I quoted about what he said of it later. They were, in his opinion, being disingenuous in pretending not to understand the irony that had been employed by the speaker in order to have a go at him. He himself is employing irony here in identifying their two problems.

I don't like that quote much. It's unpleasant, although I wasn't there to see how unpleasant the people who provoked it were. But it isn't what you're making it out to be.

 

[agricola]

Labour Party surely going to split up over this.

There are 300,000 members who joined for Corbyn and a well organised left in Momentum. There's enough size and credibility to create a new party, larger than Labour, and take Union funding too.

After the last two elections where the right of the party went out their way to lose, appeals to unity are going to ring pretty fucking hollow.

I don't think its going to split - as you say there are enough people, who are organized enough, to take it back and ironically the ECHR's call for an independent complaints system is going to mean a purge from the right isn't (or shouldn't) going to be possible.

Plus of course Starmer winning the leadership election hasn't made the right any better at politics, any more popular inside or outside the party or most importantly twenty points ahead of the worst government of our lifetime. In fact the tactic is probably to get people to quit, which is the same tactic as they tried in 2016 and were shocked to find didn't happen.

 

[Leighsw2]

....and therefore not subject to real racism (you know, the sort that the BAMEs get) ....

"the BAMES"? what the fuck are you talking about?

 

[two sheds]

we can be concerned about both at the same time! Its a skill we have developed, takes practice i suppose.

Yes fair point. I'd only really known about the far right anti-semitism until I did that on-line course which talked about the anti-semitism because of Stalin.

 

[Shechemite]

"the BAMES"? what the fuck are you talking about?

‘Whiteness’ is the real racism.

BAMEs (a concept that excludes Jews) are victims of this real racism.

As Jews aren’t BAME, it’s not racist to, for example, paint a mural of a bunch of Jews around a monopoly board under a Freemason image.

just as it’s not really racist to claim that Jews were the chef financiers of the slave trade.

 

[Mr Moose]

Labour Party surely going to split up over this.

There are 300,000 members who joined for Corbyn and a well organised left in Momentum. There's enough size and credibility to create a new party, larger than Labour, and take Union funding too.

After the last two elections where the right of the party went out their way to lose, appeals to unity are going to ring pretty fucking hollow.

I think it will be more like it was when Militant got the heave ho. A schism, but Labour blunders on regardless. The membership voted for Starmer after all and I’ve been surprised to see how many former fans of JC are ready to say they were ‘wrong’ about him, which is probably as bad as idolising him in the first place. Neither POV reflects the reality anything but crudely.

If the union cash goes then, yes, Labour is screwed, but my guess is most of it won’t.

 

[Chz]

Yes, funny that.

View attachment 236472

Ah yes, the "but Blair is a war criminal" argument. You know what? He is. Absolutely. Should rot in a cell somewhere. (preferably somewhere unpleasant)
What in the hell does that have to do with Corbyn's leadership and anti-semitism in the Labour Party? "Oh but look at this guy" is the least convincing argument there is. All that does is convince everyone that yes, there is a problem and Jeremy Corbyn was at the centre of it. Which I don't believe - I think he's utterly clueless in how to deal with this sort of thing, not complicit - but it just encourages it.

 

[oryx]

Ah yes, the "but Blair is a war criminal" argument. You know what? He is. Absolutely. Should rot in a cell somewhere. (preferably somewhere unpleasant)
What in the hell does that have to do with Corbyn's leadership and anti-semitism in the Labour Party? "Oh but look at this guy" is the least convincing argument there is. All that does is convince everyone that yes, there is a problem and Jeremy Corbyn was at the centre of it. Which I don't believe - I think he's utterly clueless in how to deal with this sort of thing, not complicit - but it just encourages it.

I can see merits in both your and teqniq's arguments.

On the subject of Blair, what still concerns me, although it happened a long time ago, is that the depiction of Michael Howard as a pig (as crudely anti-semitic as you can get) happened on Blair's watch, and nothing came of it. So fucking hypocritical.

 

[bimble]

Main thing I’m taking away from this whole shitshow of everyone talking about antisemitism on the left for the last several years is that it has not actually helped at all to either get people to spot it or to reduce its prevalence, i think it’s achieved the opposite. Good times.

 

[Mr Moose]

‘Whiteness’ is the real racism.

BAMEs (a concept that excludes Jews) are victims of this real racism.

As Jews aren’t BAME, it’s not racist to, for example, paint a mural of a bunch of Jews around a monopoly board under a Freemason image.

just as it’s not really racist to claim that Jews were the chef financiers of the slave trade.

I’d bet you hard cash most left wing people would see that mural as antisemitic and repulsive. Sadly JC didn’t, but we was lumbered with him because of Labour’s couple of decades of warmongering ineptitude.