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Labour & Anti-Semitism.

littlebabyjesus said:
And Starmer will know that as well, of course. He has the backbone of an amoeba. What he appears not to see is that, by doing this, he dooms his own political ambitions.
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Alas I don't know if that's true. If he's truly returning to Blairism (and it seems he is determined to do just that) then the route to power is not through a mass base but through getting the right wing media onside. The horrible thing is, it might work. Again.

E2a: And if that is his strategy, then he was just looking for an excuse to savage Corbyn. Which is why I thought Corbyn should have shut up, even if what he said was technically true.
 
A few minutes before Corbyn's statement comes out ("the scale of the problem was dramatically overstated by our enemies and the media".).Starmer stood there and said if.. [you still think] it's all exaggerated, or a factional attack, then .. you should be nowhere near the Labour party either" so he kind of was fucked. No way he actually wanted to do this, he knows it will damage the party and so him. What a massive fuckup.
Tbh its the worst possible outcome even just from the perspective of a jew who wants there to be less of the conspiracist antisemitism not more. thoroughly depressing.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
Instead of that, and instead of endless amounts of time and energy spent flogging the dead labour horse, how about we focus on the need to rebuild trade unions and emphasise rank and file control? How about community based movements for tenants and unemployed workers rights and against working class immiseration.

What about the question of the need to develop political education and the spread of knowledge?

We don’t need to win a never ending or successful battle for the ‘soul’ of the Labour Party to do any of that....
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This. And what a fucking waste of time, energy, lifeforce and everything else the Corbyn thing was. I know people on here with solid principles and ideas went into it, so I'm not chip pissing, but fucking hell. Even today, the fragments of the labour left will be thinking how to challenge the suspension - and then the next suspension and the next one. Last twitches of the dead horse. :(
 
Wilf said:
This. And what a fucking waste of time, energy, lifeforce and everything else the Corbyn thing was. I know people on here with solid principles and ideas went into it, so I'm not chip pissing, but fucking hell. Even today, the fragments of the labour left will be thinking how to challenge the suspension - and then the next suspension and the next one. Last twitches of the dead horse. :(
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It failed. :(

That's not necessarily the same thing as saying it was wrong to try.
 
Presume the suspension is, effectively, just starmer saying 'you are suspended'? No obvious sign of any process behind it. Doesn't make much difference in the end, but I suspect starmer was sat waiting for Corbyn's response, with a suspension ready to roll.
 
Wilf said:
This. And what a fucking waste of time, energy, lifeforce and everything else the Corbyn thing was. I know people on here with solid principles and ideas went into it, so I'm not chip pissing, but fucking hell. Even today, the fragments of the labour left will be thinking how to challenge the suspension - and then the next suspension and the next one. Last twitches of the dead horse. :(
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it's not the last twitches of the dead horse, sadly. the horse is alive. it's just one of its legs is in a shitty state.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
It failed. :(

That's not necessarily the same thing as saying it was wrong to try.
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I think the failure was in the nature of what Corbynism was. Some kind of attempt to go beyond 'being a party', organising in communities for example, might have limited the number of red wall constituencies that went blue this time. But that's just a specific outcome. I think the real problem was that it suffered from the twin limits of social democracy and labourism.
 
Wilf said:
I think the failure was in the nature of what Corbynism was. Some kind of attempt to go beyond 'being a party', organising in communities for example, might have limited the number of red wall constituencies that went blue this time. But that's just a specific outcome. I think the real problem was that it suffered from the twin limits of social democracy and labourism.
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Yep, and it's sad cos there was a tendency within Momentum that wanted to be a social movement embedded in communities, but that tendency did not win out. It became a bloc voting machine within the party. I place some of the blame for the failure of the Corbyn project on the strange long afterlife of authoritarian leftism, in which it was okay to, for instance, turn a blind eye to the fact that Momentum was controlled by a handful of people. And in which it was more important to stake out your anti-imperialist credentials by regularly denouncing Israel than to actually work with the issues most people in the UK need to grapple with. There are days when I feel the left really can't go anywhere until the remnants of that type of leftism are stamped out. Alas, as I posted on another thread, they seem to be having a resurgence instead.
 
bimble said:
A few minutes before Corbyn's statement comes out ("the scale of the problem was dramatically overstated by our enemies and the media".).Starmer stood there and said if.. [you still think] it's all exaggerated, or a factional attack, then .. you should be nowhere near the Labour party either" so he kind of was fucked. No way he actually wanted to do this, he knows it will damage the party and so him. What a massive fuckup.
Tbh its the worst possible outcome even just from the perspective of a jew who wants there to be less of the conspiracist antisemitism not more. thoroughly depressing.
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The readiness with which he's leapt on any opportunity to get shot of other lefties on even more spurious grounds suggests he probably did want to do it.
 
Brainaddict said:
Yep, and it's sad cos there was a tendency within Momentum that wanted to be a social movement embedded in communities, but that tendency did not win out. It became a bloc voting machine within the party. I place some of the blame for the failure of the Corbyn project on the strange long afterlife of authoritarian leftism, in which it was okay to, for instance, turn a blind eye to the fact that Momentum was controlled by a handful of people. And in which it was more important to stake out your anti-imperialist credentials by regularly denouncing Israel than to actually work with the issues most people in the UK need to grapple with. There are days when I feel the left really can't go anywhere until the remnants of that type of leftism are stamped out. Alas, as I posted on another thread, they seem to be having a resurgence instead.
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This, absolutely. And the irony is the suspension of Corbyn will be a boost to those voices.
 
bimble said:
A few minutes before Corbyn's statement comes out ("the scale of the problem was dramatically overstated by our enemies and the media".).Starmer stood there and said if.. [you still think] it's all exaggerated, or a factional attack, then .. you should be nowhere near the Labour party either" so he kind of was fucked. No way he actually wanted to do this, he knows it will damage the party and so him. What a massive fuckup.
Tbh its the worst possible outcome even just from the perspective of a jew who wants there to be less of the conspiracist antisemitism not more. thoroughly depressing.
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Really? He would have been jumping around with glee if he weren't afraid it would mess up his hair. If it drives more lefties away, that's a good thing as far as he's concerned.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
Stay and fight...Zzzzzzz
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I’ve been a member and activist for for around 44 years, and would have argued back and given reasons for joining Labour to fight from within, but for me the battle is over. My belief is now that The reformist left can never hope to gain power via the Labour Party because the entrenched right wing of Labour proved again they are willing to sabotage and destroy their own party’s chances of winning rather than risk a left of centre victory. The Labour Party as with any mass movement will always be a coalition otherwise you’d end up like those little lefty paper selling partys but Starmer has now shown complete contempt for those of us who campaigned tirelessly for a corbyn-led Labour victory, all the while our efforts were being undermined by the party machine and and right wing MPs.
ive never seen the attraction of joining one of the minuscule socialist grouplets selling papers to each other on pointless marches ( I did my stint of marching through the empty streets of the west end over the years and apart from the poll tax March which possibly had some impact, it was wasted effort), or arguing the finer points of Trotskyism totally detached from working class communities, and the Green Party are shite, so I will probably just step up support for a couple of single issue campaigns starting with the Palestinian solidarity campaign.
Corbyn is a lifelong anti racist, the party machine obstructed him at every opportunity. Solidarity with corbyn who is a decent man, dedicated to causes he believes in and a principled man. He goes not deserve to be tarnished as an antisemite and a racist at the end of a long life as an anti racist campaigner.
 
scifisam said:
Really? He would have been jumping around with glee if he weren't afraid it would mess up his hair. If it drives more lefties away, that's a good thing as far as he's concerned.
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I don’t understand how it helps him, just makes the party look ridiculous and makes loads of people leave? Idk.
 
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