Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[Jeff Robinson]

Now you show your true colours.

There was a stark choice last December between the possibility of a government that would care about minorities, about the poor, about the sick and disabled. A government that might actually have made a difference.

Instead we have a shit show ramping up racism, determined to drive forward the murderous policies of the last ten years.

Every decent person I know is miserable about this. Some have given up on politics (I hope not forever)

Meanwhile the Tories and the racists are glorying in Labour's defeat

And you're laughing out loud?

We see you Tory boy

This is the state of Urban politics atm. Endless denunciations of the left and Labour whilst turning a blind eye to the barbarian ideologies of nativism and rightwing nationalism fuelling the rise of authoritarian, racist scum like Johnson, Trump and Le Pen.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is the state of Urban politics atm. Endless denunciations of the left and Labour whilst turning a blind eye to the barbarian ideologies of nativism and rightwing nationalism fuelling the rise of authoritarian, racist scum like Johnson, Trump and Le Pen.

not fair to barbarians

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I know quite a lot of people in the Labour Party. Not a one of them is anti-Semitic. Some of them are anti-Zionist and anti-Israel. Indeed anti-loads-of-stuff, probably far too much. But they never encounter anti-Semitism in our neck of the woods. That doesn’t mean none exists anywhere, but it is not prevalent, certainly not overt and is largely insignificant. When I look at websites such as Jewish Voice for Labour I don’t see evidence of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. Quite the reverse. I see lots of evidence of anti-Zionism and lots of criticism of Israel and its influence. Also lots of criticism of the Party machine and of the Jewish Labour Movement.

People post on here saying that JVL was set up by bad people. Well, I don’t know these people and can’t be bothered to do masses of research to find out. But can someone tell me what on JVL is anti-Semitic?

 

[treelover]

Now you show your true colours.

There was a stark choice last December between the possibility of a government that would care about minorities, about the poor, about the sick and disabled. A government that might actually have made a difference.

Instead we have a shit show ramping up racism, determined to drive forward the murderous policies of the last ten years.

Every decent person I know is miserable about this. Some have given up on politics (I hope not forever)

Meanwhile the Tories and the racists are glorying in Labour's defeat

And you're laughing out loud?

We see you Tory boy

Interesting your positioning of who would be helped

 

[Shechemite]

i am simply pointing out the fact that you'll happily be rude to other people but you aren't so happy taking it.

this doesn’t work either. Come up with something new

 

[Shechemite]

Interesting your positioning of who would be helped

us disabled are obliged to have unthinking loyalty to labour, however bonkers and racist their politics are. That’s how it is when you’re vulnerable

 

[Pickman's model]

this doesn’t work either. Come up with something new

it doesn't have to work for you. it simply is.

 

[Shechemite]

Nice to see you’ve gone zen

 

[19force8]

Interesting your positioning of who would be helped

Hmm?

 

[Shechemite]

turns out it’s this geezer (Jack Thomas, Sefton CLP)

View attachment 199774

with the Quienelle saluting NK, and Miko Peled - you might remember him from the ‘hit piece’

And here is Jack Thomas (Sefton CLP, ‘Israeli Lobby’ ranter at RLB) with some more NK goons, and Pete Gregson (also from the ‘hit piece’)

 

[Shechemite]

Utter hostility towards antisemitism in evidence

 

[Treacle Toes]

I suspect shit like this is fuelling such opinions...

 

[Shechemite]

I suspect shit like this is fuelling such opinions...

whats some old bloke talking at the BOD got to with batshit antisemites going on about the influence of the ‘Israeli lobby’?

 

[cantsin]

whats some old bloke talking at the BOD got to with batshit antisemites going on about the influence of the ‘Israeli lobby’?

both older batshitty cranks, and hopefully not representative of wider communities on either side

 

[toblerone3]

Is there such a thing as the "Israeli lobby" and, if so, who is a member of it?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Is there such a thing as the "Israeli lobby" and, if so, who is a member of it?

There undoubtedly is, because all governments have “lobbies”, people whose job it is to push the agenda of their government in other countries, for business, strategic and other reasons. Some of these are above ground and open, others are secretive and subterranean. And some are extremely secretive, so that you wouldn’t necessarily know if they exist or not. And some may be unofficial or self-generating in some way. The Israeli government, or elements within it, certainly gets up to subterfuge around the globe, along with all the other governments. But they’re not going to tell the likes of us what they’re up to.

 

[toblerone3]

In the mid 1990s I was, for a short while, a gigging member of the Japanese lobby. My job was to produce a list of Labour MP constituencies with significant Japanese investment or ex-patriate populations. This was in the period just before Blair et al got into power.

 

[Shechemite]

both older batshitty cranks, and hopefully not representative of wider communities on either side

what communities would these be on ‘either side’?

How is the racist (jack Sefton) comparable to the Jewish bloke distressed by the thought of jew-hating prime minister?

 

[teqniq]

 

[19force8]

Labour elite clearly has an antisemitism problem:

 

[Treacle Toes]

Is there such a thing as the "Israeli lobby" and, if so, who is a member of it?

The BoD are certainly seen as part of a network of such. They are also massive Tory party cheerleaders.

 

[Proper Tidy]

It's just very few people talk about the chinese lobby or the us lobby, even though clearly people do lobby on behalf of both. I saw that tom harwood knob doing a bit of us lobbying on telly this morning as it happens.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Is there such a thing as the "Israeli lobby" and, if so, who is a member of it?

And another thing. There are organisations such as Labour Friends of Israel (and indeed Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel, Conservative Friends of Israel etc ) whose allegiance is made clear by the name. That doesn’t mean they are the creatures of the Israeli state, nor that there aren’t differences within those organisations. But if they had no effect there might not be so many such groups. Then there are bodies like the Board of Deputies or the Jewish Labour Movement, which claim to represent the broader Jewish community, but which always minimise or ignore anti-Zionist or secular views. The BoD, in particular, has friends in high places.

 

[Shechemite]

Labour elite clearly has an antisemitism problem:

The BoD are certainly seen as part of a network of such. They are also massive Tory party cheerleaders.

And another thing. There are organisations such as Labour Friends of Israel (and indeed Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel, Conservative Friends of Israel etc ) whose allegiance is made clear by the name. That doesn’t mean they are the creatures of the Israeli state, nor that there aren’t differences within those organisations. But if they had no effect there might not be so many such groups. Then there are bodies like the Board of Deputies or the Jewish Labour Movement, which claim to represent the broader Jewish community, but which always minimise or ignore anti-Zionist or secular views. The BoD, in particular, has friends in high places.

Do any of you ever stop to think how you look to the outside world?

 

[lazythursday]

This is just impossible circularity. Talking about the influence of the Israeli lobby / LFOI / BoD does indeed make you look like an anti-semitic conspiracy theorist. And yet at the same time it is completely clear that right wing Jewish organisations [and the right of the party, and I'm sure the Israeli state] had a political interest in seeing this issue fester and balloon rather than being resolved. Even now, years later, it feels impossible to see through the mud of this and ascertain just how bad anti-semitism was/is in the party and to what extent it was ignored / misunderstood / agreed with by elements of the leadership. It so distresses me that we have likely lost this generational opportunity for the left because of some obsessives about one particular foreign conflict. And the whole thing has made it so much harder for a future Labour government to have an uncompromisingly pro-Palestianian position too.

It's certainly been an education for me, as I didn't really get left-wing antisemitism at the beginning. Now I feel extremely sensitised to it. But I'm still conflicted about whether/how this whole shitshow could have been avoided given much of it playing out on social media and hence easily publicised and less easily dealt with. If it had been easily defused I think something else would have been found as the ideal wedge issue - maybe trans rights.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Do any of you ever stop to think how you look to the outside world?

The outside world is a big place, with lots of different people with different outlooks.

It is not an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory to say that Israel works covertly and overtly in its own interests, or what it thinks are its own interests. All governments do that.

The only reason people are going on about this is that they have yet to see any evidence of widespread anti- semitism in the Labour Party. The issue has been used by Tories to attack Labour, and by the Labour right to attack the left, without clear evidence. That is the problem.

Slagging people off because they disagree may make you feel better, or not, but it’s not an argument.

 

[Shechemite]

The outside world is a big place, with lots of different people with different outlooks.

What opinions do you think people would have of the posts I quoted? Why do you think there is a widespread belief that labour/the left have an antisemitism problem?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Btw the most obvious and crude intervention in UK politics on behalf of a foreign state in recent memory is arguably india & modi/bjp, certainly in context of labour party anyway. Whatsapp and that. Google has surprisingly few relevant results for indian lobby. Or indeed hindu lobby.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Btw the most obvious and crude intervention in UK politics on behalf of a foreign state in recent memory is arguably india & modi/bjp, certainly in context of labour party anyway. Whatsapp and that. Google has surprisingly few relevant results for indian lobby. Or indeed hindu lobby.

But the media has been clogged up with allegations of Labour anti-Semitism. That’s the difference.

 

[Chilli.s]

I find it a bit odd that the media chatter about all this has just disappeared after the election.