Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[cantsin]

This is what I don't get. Instead of going oh that one, just a minor player, that one, got kicked out, that one well I've never heard of her etc perhaps it's an idea to ponder why these people find a home in this political currant and how that same political currant can be made hostile for racists and conspiracy freaks without relying solely on after the event expulsions and disciplinaries.

Nobody here is talking about chucking baby out with bathwater and becoming nick cohen cheering liberals, it's about a left (or whatever) that has good politics

ON a practical level, they're literally getting suspended / expelled / barred, as the original article under discussion states, clearly, how can you get more ' hostile' than that?

On a broader level, my only personal experience is 5 yrs of local CLP meets' where I've heard one twerp ( and this bloke is a serial twerp tbh ) casually claim ' Israel pulls US strings ' - he was shut up immediately and derisively / it was pointed out that US had just renewed it's $10bn p.a annual military aid comitments to Israel, ( for the usual petro-strategic reasons ) and was probably not expecting to have any strings pulled at that price.

It would be unimaginable for AS to rear it's head on any wider scale IRL, and whilst that might not be the same for each and every CLP, I bet it's not far off for the vast majority.

When it comes to online, of all the main shi*tty crank Twitter accounts, its seems there's only 2 or 3 left that claim to be in Labour, and will still use ' Zio Lobby' and dribble on constantly about LFI when not relevant etc, and they always seem to get told to f*ck off eventually.

Closed FB groups : this is where the real crank sh*t festersit seems, I don't get to see it first hand, and there's little any of us can do a political level - but they seem to be getting weeded out ( again, as per the article ) - but as I say, v difficult to get proactive , politically, with this lot.

 

[Proper Tidy]

ON a practical level, they're literally getting suspended / expelled / barred, as the original article under discussion states, clearly, how can you get more ' hostile' than that?

On a broader level, my only personal experience is 5 yrs of local CLP meets' where I've heard one twerp ( and this bloke is a serial twerp tbh ) casually claim ' Israel pulls US strings ' - he was shut up immediately and derisively / it was pointed out that US had just renewed it's $10bn p.a annual military aid comitments to Israel, ( for the usual petro-strategic reasons ) and was probably not expecting to have any strings pulled at that price.

It would be unimaginable for AS to rear it's head on any wider scale IRL, and whilst that might not be the same for each and every CLP, I bet it's not far off for the vast majority.

When it comes to online, of all the main shi*tty crank Twitter accounts, its seems there's only 2 or 3 left that claim to be in Labour, and will still use ' Zio Lobby' and dribble on constantly about LFI when not relevant etc, and they always seem to get told to f*ck off eventually.

Closed FB groups : this is where the real crank sh*t festersit seems, I don't get to see it first hand, and there's little any of us can do a political level - but they seem to be getting weeded out ( again, as per the article ) - but as I say, v difficult to get proactive , politically, with this lot.

I think you missed my point. Rather than weeding out after the event with expulsions etc wouldn't it be an idea to try to understand why they felt at home there in the first place (although as it happens I disagree with your view that it's rare in the wild)

 

[cantsin]

I think you missed my point. Rather than weeding out after the event with expulsions etc wouldn't it be an idea to try to understand why they felt at home there in the first place (although as it happens I disagree with your view that it's rare in the wild)

wrongly or rightly, I've always had the same view on this, as per a few posts ago :

" We've got the largest membership in Europe, and have attracted a fair few cranks and wrong un's into our ranks over the last 5 years due to Corbyn's unwavering support for the Palestinian people, and on the downside, cos of his and his cohorts reflexive anti US imperialism and the blindspots that creates"

 

[Proper Tidy]

wrongly or rightly, I've always had the same view on this, as per a few posts ago :

" We've got the largest membership in Europe, and have attracted a fair few cranks and wrong un's into our ranks over the last 5 years due to Corbyn's unwavering support for the Palestinian people, and on the downside, cos of his and his cohorts reflexive anti US imperialism and the blindspots that creates"

If that logic held then labour would also be fighting the same battle with scientologists and survivalists and evangelical christians and jihadis and actual nazis as they are with the anti imperialist conspiracist antisemitic lot. But they aren't. Which should tell you labour doesn't feel hospitable to the former but does to the latter.

 

[cantsin]

If that logic held then labour would also be fighting the same battle with scientologists and survivalists and evangelical christians and jihadis and actual nazis as they are with the anti imperialist conspiracist antisemitic lot. But they aren't. Which should tell you labour doesn't feel hospitable to the former but does to the latter.

If that logic held then labour would also be fighting the same battle with scientologists and survivalists and evangelical christians and jihadis and actual nazis as they are with the anti imperialist conspiracist antisemitic lot. But they aren't. Which should tell you labour doesn't feel hospitable to the former but does to the latter.

am confused : why would / could " Corbyn's unwavering support for the Palestinian people, and on the downside, cos of his and his cohorts reflexive anti US imperialism and the blindspots that creates" " attract Scientologists / survivalists " etc ?

it's attracted some Israel / Zionism fixated conspiracists, as no doubt did the influx of some of the post Occupy / Anon etc lot post 2011, and esp. post JC election 2015

 

[Proper Tidy]

am confused : why would / could " Corbyn's unwavering support for the Palestinian people, and on the downside, cos of his and his cohorts reflexive anti US imperialism and the blindspots that creates" " attract Scientologists / survivalists " etc ?

it's attracted some Israel / Zionism fixated conspiracists, as no doubt did the influx of some of the post Occupy / Anon etc lot post 2011, and esp. post JC election 2015

Sorry, should have been clearer. I meant the suggestion that the size of the membership makes this stuff inevitable.

I'd agree on what you call reflexive anti US imperialism but shouldn't this lead to a wider review of the shit politics that is widespread on the left, particularly labour left

 

[two sheds]

I think you missed my point. Rather than weeding out after the event with expulsions etc wouldn't it be an idea to try to understand why they felt at home there in the first place (although as it happens I disagree with your view that it's rare in the wild)

I'm not sure how you'd do that without eradicating antisemitism within society as a whole tbh. I'd also imagine people could post up a string of examples of revolutionary socialists who've posted antisemitic views to 'prove' that revolutionary socialism was antisemitic. Doesn't necessarily make it true.

It needs to be looked at within how prevalent antisemitism is in society compared with how prevalent it is in the labour party and in the other parties/beliefs. I've also seen figures (can't remember where sorry) that suggest the number of people with antisemitic beliefs within labour is at a lower level now than when corbyn took over.

 

[TopCat]

errrrrr

You demanded to know what he/she thought of whoever. But a demand on you is something different. Have I got that right?

 

[Shechemite]

You demanded to know what he/she thought of whoever. But a demand on you is something different. Have I got that right?

Your ‘ffs’ comment in response to my comment re Martinez is because you don’t know what you’re on about. Have I got that right?

 

[TopCat]

Your ‘ffs’ comment in response to my comment re Martinez is because you don’t know what you’re on about. Have I got that right?

Sorry what are you on about? Is this some old beef you want to poke? Have you got a link so I can have an idea what you are going on about?
You demand this and that but dont abide by the standards you set others.

 

[belboid]

Looks to me like he was asking for answers and you were just sneering, hence his irritation.


I meant the "Jew!" comment.

ffs. This is why MadeInBedlam is now on ignore for me. He just vomits this shit up time and time again and anyone disagreeing with him is a massive anti-semite. Utterly pointless.

 

[TopCat]

It is pure arse vomit

 

[Shechemite]

Ffs

that one

 

[Shechemite]

ffs. This is why MadeInBedlam is now on ignore for me. He just vomits this shit up time and time again and anyone disagreeing with him is a massive anti-semite. Utterly pointless.

oh noes

the rest of the world has moved on and some past-it Trot is still coming out with the same shit they were 4 years ago

 

[TopCat]

that one

I would imagine I have exclaimed ffs in response to your posts on a number of occasions.

 

[Shechemite]

I would imagine I have exclaimed ffs in response to your posts on a number of occasions.

I’m sure you would. The arrow on the top of the quote box will handily direct you.

 

[TopCat]

I just looked over the exchange. You relish a debating style that is akin to having shit wiped on you.
Ffs was quite mild to be fair. I had you down as being a bit vulnerable so didn't really convey my contempt.

 

[TopCat]

You remind me of poster Lee Japser. Same paint by numbers behaviour.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I'm not sure how you'd do that without eradicating antisemitism within society as a whole tbh. I'd also imagine people could post up a string of examples of revolutionary socialists who've posted antisemitic views to 'prove' that revolutionary socialism was antisemitic. Doesn't necessarily make it true.

It needs to be looked at within how prevalent antisemitism is in society compared with how prevalent it is in the labour party and in the other parties/beliefs. I've also seen figures (can't remember where sorry) that suggest the number of people with antisemitic beliefs within labour is at a lower level now than when corbyn took over.

But the antisemitism in labour is different to typical wider antisemitism. It's (broadly speaking) of different roots, and that comes from a political trend, or way of looking at the world or however you want to put it.

The tories have a publicised problem with islamophobia. I doubt anybody here would deny that, and most would recognise that it flows from a political view and make up of a big chunk of the tory party, even though islamophobia is everywhere and that is the excuse the tories will trot out. So why can't people apply the same rationale to labour and the left. I don't understand.

 

[19force8]

lol

Oh I am

you’ve got nothing left. 12/12/2019 was the last roll of the dice for people like you.

All that time and effort for nothing

Now you show your true colours.

There was a stark choice last December between the possibility of a government that would care about minorities, about the poor, about the sick and disabled. A government that might actually have made a difference.

Instead we have a shit show ramping up racism, determined to drive forward the murderous policies of the last ten years.

Every decent person I know is miserable about this. Some have given up on politics (I hope not forever)

Meanwhile the Tories and the racists are glorying in Labour's defeat

And you're laughing out loud?

We see you Tory boy

 

[two sheds]

But the antisemitism in labour is different to typical wider antisemitism. It's (broadly speaking) of different roots, and that comes from a political trend, or way of looking at the world or however you want to put it.

The tories have a publicised problem with islamophobia. I doubt anybody here would deny that, and most would recognise that it flows from a political view and make up of a big chunk of the tory party, even though islamophobia is everywhere and that is the excuse the tories will trot out. So why can't people apply the same rationale to labour and the left. I don't understand.

Antisemitism in labour seems to me to be primarily a spillover from anti-Israeli government sentiment. Some of the accusations are valid (clearly with the more extreme wing merging into the worst sorts of conspiracy theory) and some not (accusations that any criticism of the Israeli government is antisemitic). Not sure how you change that aside from suspending/expelling people when they show themselves to be antisemitic.

Second paragraph: again though, most important surely is how prevalent it is. Islamophobia by several measures is more prevalent in the tory party than in society more widely so that would indeed be an excuse. That isn't true of antisemitism and labour so I don't think the comparison is valid.

Who do you mean by labour 'and the left' by the way? (Not having a go, just not sure who you're referring to).

 

[Shechemite]

(Edited to add) Tory boy

pathetic. Why are you still doing this? What’s the aim here?

where next for your politics?

 

[Pickman's model]

I just looked over the exchange. You relish a debating style that is akin to having shit wiped on you.
Ffs was quite mild to be fair. I had you down as being a bit vulnerable so didn't really convey my contempt.

not persuaded that throwing insults is debate.

 

[Pickman's model]

pathetic. Why are you still doing this? What’s the aim here?

you hand it out but you don't like it

 

[two sheds]

not persuaded that throwing insults is debate.

Been on urban long have you?

 

[19force8]

pathetic. Why are you still doing this? What’s the aim here?

where next for your politics?

Why am I still doing this? Because I haven't given up hoping the world can be a better place.

What’s the aim here? Answered above.

where next for your politics? Campaigning to change the things I can't tolerate, giving what support I can to those fighting back or struggling.

Feel free to LOL at my pathetic efforts. You're going on ignore because I actually have a life.

 

[Shechemite]

my pathetic efforts.

Enjoy your life

 

[Shechemite]

you hand it out but you don't like it

I’m bemused that an approach which has demonstrably failed is still being pursued

none of the deflection/minimising/guilt trips worked. Why still attempt them?

 

[Shechemite]

I had you down as being a bit vulnerable

Quite. Another vote winner that one.

 

[Pickman's model]

I’m bemused that an approach which has demonstrably failed is still being pursued

none of the deflection/minimising/guilt trips worked. Why still attempt them?

i'm not. i am simply pointing out the fact that you'll happily be rude to other people but you aren't so happy taking it.