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Kim Jong il dead (ish)

In fact, "is he fit to lead", "who is he", "how will he lead" seem like the only valid questions to ask in light of how little is known about him and the degree of power he might wield.
Hang on. Was Kim Jong-il fit to lead? The man had the blood of millions of people on his hands. Asking whether or not jong un is capable totally misses the point, imo, in the same way that Clinton missed the point with her idiotic remark.

Do you want jong un to be capable? To be able to continue with the criminal dynasty? Yes, it is valid to ask who he is and what might be likely to happen next, but not on the terms Clinton and others seem to be putting it, as if the death of Jong il were somehow a bad thing. A despicable tyrant is dead. This is good!
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16297811
Kim Jong-il death: 'Nature mourns' N Korea leader

Even nature is mourning, the state-run Korean Central News Agency reported on Thursday.

A snowstorm hit as Mr Kim died and ice on the volcanic Chon lake near his reported birthplace at Mount Paektu cracked, it said.
Following the storm's sudden end at dawn on Tuesday, a message carved in rock - "Mount Paektu, holy mountain of revolution. Kim Jong-il" - glowed brightly, it said. It remained there until sunset.

On the same say, a Manchurian crane also apparently adopted a posture of grief at a statue of the late leader's father in the northern city of Hamhung.

"Even the crane seemed to mourn the demise of Kim Jong-il, born of Heaven, after flying down there at dead of cold night, unable to forget him," KCNA reported officials as saying.

:D
 
The strange thing is that, by a rather twisted set of standards, Kim Jong Il was a highly effective leader. He managed to pursue his strategy (a subset of Juche) in the face of enormous external pressure and a slow-burning internal catastrophe. And in the end he got his bomb and made the N.Korean state immeasurably stronger by his own standards.

So, it is perfectly valid to ask whether this young successor, about whom we know very little apart from his Swiss education and a few anecdotes from Kim Jong Il's "chef", has the ability to play the same game his father did.

By all accounts, his father was shrewd, knowledgeable and cunning. Is he? We don't know. Ergo - is he fit to lead?
 
I seriously recommend reading 'Nothing to Envy' for those genuinely interested in getting first hand accounts of the state of mind people are forced into out of fear and misinformation about the DPRK leadership. The accounts of the bawling and the implications for failure to express sufficient grief at Kim Il-Sung's passing are seriously disturbing.
 
The strange thing is that, by a rather twisted set of standards, Kim Jong Il was a highly effective leader.
He was effective in the sense that he managed to hold onto power. I don't see how his time in power can be characterised as anything other than a total disaster for the North Korean people, though.
 
I seriously recommend reading 'Nothing to Envy' for those genuinely interested in getting first hand accounts of the state of mind people are forced into out of fear and misinformation about the DPRK leadership. The accounts of the bawling and the implications for failure to express sufficient grief at Kim Il-Sung's passing are seriously disturbing.
Yep, I've read that. It's an astonishing read.
 
they must be completely brainwashed, look at them, freaks. I bet there are soldiers behind them etc.

I don't think anyone's labelling them "freaks" per se.

I find the lazy bandying about of the term 'brainwashed' to be sneering, and ignorant. Particularly when it is being used to describe pictures of well-fed Pyongyang residents (by definition the favoured few) balling their eyes out dutifully. It shows a misunderstanding of what's happening, imo.

Brainwashed is a kind of journalistic shorthand, isn't it? I reckon it's a pretty valid catch-all label in this situation. I agree with you that there will be a variety of different reasons why people are exhibiting such hysterical public grief but the central motive force behind all of them will be a kind of paranoid fear verging on the delusional - that falls into the brainwashed category from my perspective.

There's a fascinating section from "Nothing to Envy" by Barbara Demick which concentrates on defectors' memories of the death of Kim Il-sung in 1994. It's worth reading to get a flavour of the different factors that are most likely at play in peoples' reactions to Kim Jong Il's death.
 
He was effective in the sense that he managed to hold onto power. I don't see how his time in power can be characterised as anything other than a total disaster for the North Korean people, though.

I agree it's been a disaster for the people but that rather misses the point.

He's done very well by the standards of a totalitarian dictator given the pressures that North Korea has been subject to.
 
The strange thing is that, by a rather twisted set of standards, Kim Jong Il was a highly effective leader. He managed to pursue his strategy (a subset of Juche) in the face of enormous external pressure and a slow-burning internal catastrophe. And in the end he got his bomb and made the N.Korean state immeasurably stronger by his own standards.

So, it is perfectly valid to ask whether this young successor, about whom we know very little apart from his Swiss education and a few anecdotes from Kim Jong Il's "chef", has the ability to play the same game his father did.

By all accounts, his father was shrewd, knowledgeable and cunning. Is he? We don't know. Ergo - is he fit to lead?
Well, nobody even seems to be sure how old he is, even. We know nothing of Jong un. But the point was made the other day by a commentator (ex-diplomat) that we knew precious little about Jong il. We don't actually know how powerful Jong il was, or whether there were others behind the scenes, particularly in the army, who held much of the real power. It's hard even to guess about jong un, but it seems reasonable to suppose that there will be others behind the scenes now who will have a great deal of influence, and perhaps will hold the real power. But the truth is that we know nothing - when the list of official mourners was released (about 200 irrc), that was the first glimpse for us outside NK of where power can be seen to lie there.
 
Hang on. Was Kim Jong-il fit to lead? The man had the blood of millions of people on his hands. Asking whether or not jong un is capable totally misses the point, imo, in the same way that Clinton missed the point with her idiotic remark.

Do you want jong un to be capable? To be able to continue with the criminal dynasty? Yes, it is valid to ask who he is and what might be likely to happen next, but not on the terms Clinton and others seem to be putting it, as if the death of Jong il were somehow a bad thing. A despicable tyrant is dead. This is good!

Yeah all the bullshit "can he continue his fathers legacy"! Can he fuck!!!
 
I agree it's been a disaster for the people but that rather misses the point.

He's done very well by the standards of a totalitarian dictator given the pressures that North Korea has been subject to.

Yes he did.

And saying that doesn't make me a supporter of DPRK.
 
I seriously recommend reading 'Nothing to Envy' for those genuinely interested in getting first hand accounts of the state of mind people are forced into out of fear and misinformation about the DPRK leadership. The accounts of the bawling and the implications for failure to express sufficient grief at Kim Il-Sung's passing are seriously disturbing.

One of the best books I've read this year.
 
in the face of enormous external pressure and a slow-burning internal catastrophe.
that internal catastrophe was in no small part his own creation.
this line of rhetoric reminds me of the pretzel logic the gop produced during the heat of the iraq occupation, no dissent is permitted because 'the country is at war'.
 
I seriously recommend reading 'Nothing to Envy'

Also Chol-Hwan's 'The Aquariums of Pyongyang'. Those two books are probably amongst the better written accounts of various real life experiences of citizens in NK.

For a totally different perspective on the country (that of a foreigner) I recommend the light reading that is Guy Delisle's 'Pyongyang: A Journey in North Korea'. Actually a cartoon book (by a Canadian illustrator who went to supervise work at studios there) full of both funny and WTF moments. It's actually bizarrely accurate as far as the Pyongyang tourist experience goes and even funnier to read a second time after a trip (it's full of hidden gems).

Alternatively there is always the Pyongyang Times, English edition. Predictable but it never disappoints. Folding the paper so you crease any cover photo of the Great or Dear Leader is considered a big no-no. I think they put a full front page photo of the father or son on there just to see how visitors struggle with it (you get handed a complimentary copy arriving on Air Koryo).

The Great Leader's biography 'The Benevolent Son' has some cracking comedy moments in it too. Hard to find outside the country though. Luckily it appears to have been abridged in some 103 parts on-line.

Visiting North Korea is probably what it's like to live in a Monty Python sketch (Note: visiting as a tourist, not living as a local)
 
Alternatively there is always the Pyongyang Times, English edition. Predictable but it never disappoints.
i actually have a few copies of this (i worked with an 'alternative weekly' in the 80s which had exchange agreements with a few foreign papers). amazing stuff. you're right, it never disappoints.
 
Also Chol-Hwan's 'The Aquariums of Pyongyang'. Those two books are probably amongst the better written accounts of various real life experiences of citizens in NK.

I actually finished that at about the same time KJI died! It is quite good but really poorly edited, it's full of typos. :confused:
 
I actually finished that at about the same time KJI died! It is quite good but really poorly edited, it's full of typos. :confused:

I think it may have suffered somewhat at the hands of the translator(s)? Something Demick's book hasn't endured. Still a fascinating book.
 
Seems to be a Japanese (?) website providing the nightly news bulletins from North Korea's KCTV:

http://www.elufa.net/krt-tv/houdou.html

Has everything going back to the announcement on Monday and (currently) a couple of days before.

2hats - judging by your comments, I take it that you've gone on one of the tours to N.Korea.

I suppose the first question to ask is - how comfortable were you with giving foreign currency to the regime?
 
2hats - judging by your comments, I take it that you've gone on one of the tours to N.Korea.

I suppose the first question to ask is - how comfortable were you with giving foreign currency to the regime?

Yes. I thought about it for some time before going. But in the end I think contact and engagement trumps isolationism. Absolutely no (or at least minimal) contact with the outside world will only lead to hardening of viewpoints, mistrust, etc. Direct, very human interaction, breaks down those barriers.

Additionally, the amount of hard currency they are making from foreign tourists is negligible compared to the money they are making from raw materials, mass labour, special arrangements like the Kaesong Industrial Park and indeed any shady activities (arms dealing and supposedly foreign currency forgery).
 
Did you have any interaction with everyday North Korean citizens which you felt wasn't simulated and, if so, how did that pan out?
 
Did you have any interaction with everyday North Korean citizens which you felt wasn't simulated and, if so, how did that pan out?

Interaction with lots of citizens but as I've mentioned before, with most of them not speaking English and me not speaking Korean it's going to be as limited as in any other foreign country where there's a language barrier. Also - how do we define 'everyday' citizens? Those in the fields, those cutting the grass verges with scissors in Pyongyang, the staff in the department stores and stamp centre, your own guides, museum guides, raw military recruits, schoolkids, staff at bars, in restaurants, hotel staff... Other than the very youngest children, who knows to what degree they are truly subscribed to, believe in their system and so, by extension, are acting (or not)?

I don't want to detail many of the interactions for reasons I've already mentioned but let's just say that some people dropped big hints that they know that the system isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Most of the personal interaction seemed to be honest and from the heart. The only time I recall hearing someone really struggling with the official line was the poor young army girl guiding us around the Victorious Fatherland Liberation War Museum. When she started her long account of what happened and was met with blank, disbelieving or just pitiful faces (and presumably gets the same reaction from all outsiders, bar maybe some Chinese) she certainly seemed to be struggling. I couldn't tell if she was just a little exasperated that she does that day in, day out and feels no one believes her or because she is well enough informed to know that the story she tells isn't true (or at least is accepted to be inaccurate by most of the outside world). Top marks for persevering with the story though.

There were other awkward moments in museums/on visits when you ask a suitable question (much of the storyline in a lot of these places doesn't stand up well, if at all, to any rational analysis) and then the guides huddle together in a mild panic for several minutes trying to cook up an answer (whilst you scratch your bum, gaze at the ceiling, make faces at the young recruits to see if they'll crack), as if they've never been asked similar questions before. As in other places (eg the FBI museum in DC) there are also exhibits in museums that the guides ignore but those objects tell their own story to those with sufficient information to piece it together. I enjoyed playing spot the Stalinesque revisional antique-photoshop image manipulation in some of the museums. In fact a lot of it wasn't very subtle.

All of the contact was interesting, intriguing even, fun and some downright hilarious. At times you had to bite your lip as you were screaming with laughter inside (situations could be so comically strange) but you didn't want to be confined to your hotel room (at best), let alone risk a free trip to a re-education camp (some foreigners have been imprisoned for openly cracking jokes about the Dear Leader, albeit for a few days or so then thrown out of the country).

The DPRK was everything I imagined it could be and more. All very surreal (for an outsider), somewhat kafkaesque. Orwell meets Gilliam's Brazil meets the Truman Show; as I've said, it felt like you were in a Python sketch sometimes, the bizarre logic that you were subjected to...

Met some beautiful, geniune people, but sometimes you could almost cry for them. It was one of the most amazing places I've ever visited (and I've been to some odd ones) with memories that make me smile time every time. But ultimately it's quite hard to really convey the true nature of the place to anyone who has not been there - you just have to go there and experience it yourself (ironically, perhaps, it is probably one of the safest countries in the world for tourists).

The whole country is a complete mindfuck. But a very beautiful one.
 
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