Ken Burns, The Vietnam War

[seventh bullet]

He did meet with the OSS in 1945 , but in the end the Americans supported the French .

The Americans considered atom bombing the DRV and Viet Minh.

 

[seventh bullet]

With hindsight, we now know that to be true.

If the US hadn't vigorously resisted communism in Vietnam, how many other nations would have been invaded and their people condemned to suffer decades of Communism?

You mean if the US hadn't invaded the country and eventually failed with its mass murder panacea.

 

[Leo2]

With hindsight, we now know that to be true.

If the US hadn't vigorously resisted communism in Vietnam, how many other nations would have been invaded and their people condemned to suffer decades of Communism?

Probably none. The 'Domino Theory' was a load of self-serving cobblers.

 

[Casually Red]

You were doing alright until that last sentence. I could well imagine Ho Chi Minh thinking that the only way to escape foreign domination was to also be communist, the thinking being that outside of communism all nations will be dominated by capitalism- thus true national liberation would require communism (not to mention that Communisms ultimate goal was in theory anyway an end to the nation-state). I can't say I've read his thoughts and writings on the matter however so am reluctant to assume that's how HCM saw things. Anyway although HCM was a remarckable man we should get away from this Great Man theory you seem to be following, Vietnams struggle was a more complex beast than can be summed up in what HCM thought was going on.

Anti colonialism / anti imperialism / national independence struggles at their sum involves wresting sovereignty from the colonialist and placing it in the hands of the people . Without socialism / communism the colonialist powers will still rule the former colony through the financial institutions, markets, exploitation of labour and resources . Connolly and others understood this, so did Ho chi Minh . The only route to sovereignty and utmost national independence is via the socialist / communist route .

The overtures Ho chi Minh was making to the US in the beginning are perfectly evident in the opening lines of the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence .

Declaration of Independence of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam

During WW2 the assistance of the US to the allied powers came with a number of strings , one being that ultimately their empires were over . Not out of any altruism but either to ensure US access to those markets or at the very least to break the Anglo French stranglehold over them . so for countries like Vietnam an olive branch to the US was perfectly within their national interests .

Vietnam was equally wary of its Chinese neighbour which had long dominated it , and there's serios antagonism there to this day . Reaching out to the US in that manner was an attempt to ensure maximum national independence , to send the message Vietnam wasn't going to be part of any " bloc " as such . The kind of thinking that later coalesced in the Non Aligned movement with Tito etc . Where maximum national independence could be sought by Positioning ones self between the various power blocs rather than ensconcing oneself within them .

 

[camouflage]

Anti colonialism / anti imperialism / national independence struggles at their sum involves wresting sovereignty from the colonialist and placing it in the hands of the people . Without socialism / communism the colonialist powers will still rule the former colony through the financial institutions, markets, exploitation of labour and resources . Connolly and others understood this, so did Ho chi Minh . The only route to sovereignty and utmost national independence is via the socialist / communist route .

The overtures Ho chi Minh was making to the US in the beginning are perfectly evident in the opening lines of the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence .

Declaration of Independence of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam

During WW2 the assistance of the US to the allied powers came with a number of strings , one being that ultimately their empires were over . Not out of any altruism but either to ensure US access to those markets or at the very least to break the Anglo French stranglehold over them . so for countries like Vietnam an olive branch to the US was perfectly within their national interests .

Vietnam was equally wary of its Chinese neighbour which had long dominated it , and there's serios antagonism there to this day . Reaching out to the US in that manner was an attempt to ensure maximum national independence , to send the message Vietnam wasn't going to be part of any " bloc " as such . The kind of thinking that later coalesced in the Non Aligned movement with Tito etc . Where maximum national independence could be sought by Positioning ones self between the various power blocs rather than ensconcing oneself within them .

I mean look at South Africa, textbook isn't it- Apartheid ended and most of the wealth remains where it has always been, but with the assistance a larger black comprador class. Maybe that's as good as it gets.

that bit about Chinese domination of Vietnam reminded me of a documentary I saw over on Netflix called "The Ascent of Woman", touching on the influence of china on Vietnamese sexual relations (things got worse).

 

[Casually Red]

As soon as the US fucked off from Vietnam China launched an invasion attempt .

Part of South Africa's misfortune was that apartheid fell around the same time as the demise of the Soviet union . The non aligned movement was crumbling, , even Cuba was in its special period and withdrawing from the scene . Socialism/ communism was never more out of vogue at any time in its history . It emerged into the unipolar world were " the market " was all . Pop stars, Hollywood and all sorts of liberal dogooders were infesting the place . that's who the new ruling class were looking to for advice on how to run the place . They got plenty . Even the fucking Russians were asking them how does this stuff work . Not hard to guess what the answer was .

 

[camouflage]

As soon as the US fucked off from Vietnam China launched an invasion attempt .

Part of South Africa's misfortune was that apartheid fell around the same time as the demise of the Soviet union . The non aligned movement was crumbling, , even Cuba was in its special period and withdrawing from the scene . Socialism/ communism was never more out of vogue at any time in its history . It emerged into the unipolar world were " the market " was all . Pop stars, Hollywood and all sorts of liberal dogooders were infesting the place . that's who the new ruling class were looking to for advice on how to run the place . They got plenty . Even the fucking Russians were asking them how does this stuff work . Not hard to guess what the answer was .

Re that episode of The Ascent of Woman, they took us back to Vietnam’s 'Game of Thrones times', where two female generals waged a glorious resistance to the Chinese invaders before their glorious defeat at the hands of the Chinese that even today plays a big role in Vietnamese national identity. After that China imposed Confucianism on Vietnam in which women were no longer more-or-less mens equals as they had been in that society previously but were made into sort of pseudo-children to be managed by the man of the house as per the confucian tradition.A bit off-topic but an interesting documentary I thought.

It always gives me pause that "Liberal do-gooder" is a pejorative, literally "Freedom-endorsing try-to-helper; sneer".

 

[seventh bullet]

As soon as the US fucked off from Vietnam China launched an invasion attempt .

Part of South Africa's misfortune was that apartheid fell around the same time as the demise of the Soviet union . The non aligned movement was crumbling, , even Cuba was in its special period and withdrawing from the scene . Socialism/ communism was never more out of vogue at any time in its history . It emerged into the unipolar world were " the market " was all . Pop stars, Hollywood and all sorts of liberal dogooders were infesting the place . that's who the new ruling class were looking to for advice on how to run the place . They got plenty . Even the fucking Russians were asking them how does this stuff work . Not hard to guess what the answer was .

Over Democratic Kampuchea? It wasn't an invasion.

 

[hipipol]

Though the UK didn't send troops we provided intel via the Hong Kong base of GCHQ/MI6 and the subs that monitored along the China coast. The US Fleet used HK for R+R so the place was covered in drunken GI's, Marines and Sailors. I saw some of the biggest mass brawls - giving any movie western a run for its money.
On the way home from school in 1970, while waiting for our bus at the Star Ferry, my friend Eric and I got talking to an American officer, well actually Eric asked him if he was alright as he was all bent over on the bench. He lifted his head and started babbling bout how "he was going back to Nam, he knew he wasn't going to make it, he would never see his home town again, he had a son our age, he would never see him again, then started bawling and shouting. I was well freaked out, moved away. He gave Eric a bundle of Yankee notes, said he wouldn't need it.
It has always stayed with me primarily because this mans aggressively mawkish sentimentality is the way the Yanks saw it then and how the still see it. No matter that they basted the entire country in bombs and napalm, "Hey, we feel bad, we are suffering you know"
The still think about "how much they suffered"
Until they let go of that however many times they retell it, the same self justifying crap will come out.
Over here, until the twisted notion the "Empire" was generally a good thing is properly discredited and abandoned we will also perpetrate crap - Empire by Niall Ferguson is a blinding example
Planks and specs, planks and specs
Worth recalling Ho Chi Minh had asked the Yanks, being as how they were shout it from the roof tops anti Imperialist to help him get freedom for his country. They first ignored then bombed him. Way to go, land of the free
I wont be watching this tosh

 

[TomUS]

Though the UK didn't send troops we provided intel via the Hong Kong base of GCHQ/MI6 and the subs that monitored along the China coast. The US Fleet used HK for R+R so the place was covered in drunken GI's, Marines and Sailors. I saw some of the biggest mass brawls - giving any movie western a run for its money.
On the way home from school in 1970, while waiting for our bus at the Star Ferry, my friend Eric and I got talking to an American officer, well actually Eric asked him if he was alright as he was all bent over on the bench. He lifted his head and started babbling bout how "he was going back to Nam, he knew he wasn't going to make it, he would never see his home town again, he had a son our age, he would never see him again, then started bawling and shouting. I was well freaked out, moved away. He gave Eric a bundle of Yankee notes, said he wouldn't need it.
It has always stayed with me primarily because this mans aggressively mawkish sentimentality is the way the Yanks saw it then and how the still see it. No matter that they basted the entire country in bombs and napalm, "Hey, we feel bad, we are suffering you know"
The still think about "how much they suffered"
Until they let go of that however many times they retell it, the same self justifying crap will come out.
Over here, until the twisted notion the "Empire" was generally a good thing is properly discredited and abandoned we will also perpetrate crap - Empire by Niall Ferguson is a blinding example
Planks and specs, planks and specs
Worth recalling Ho Chi Minh had asked the Yanks, being as how they were shout it from the roof tops anti Imperialist to help him get freedom for his country. They first ignored then bombed him. Way to go, land of the free
I wont be watching this tosh

So you assume the series is mainly about how Americans suffered? Wrong.

 

[malatesta32]

KB did the series on jazz and the american civil war. his strength is that he structures narrative from oral history and also manages to unearth some pretty obscure footage (which jazz fans particularly will thank him for). altho the american civil war is contentious (and subject to revisionism- speilbergs' lincoln film) vietnam is still in living memory; it still hurts for many americans; and it is as polarising as the civil war. vietnam protests were a major part of radical history in the uk as they coincided with CND, 1968, uni occupations, the rejuvenation of fascism (NF) etc. watching a US analysis of vietnam requires an understanding of their continued uncertainty of the righteousness of it.

 

[petee]

 

[JimW]

View attachment 430845

That looks to be Chinese writing on the wall; Vietnam had long stopped using characters by then so wonder where that is, some captured redoubt in Laos or Cambodia that had PLA advisors stationed?

 

[JimW]

Or R&R at a lefty guesthouse in HK

 

[petee]

That looks to be Chinese writing on the wall

good eye, i couldn't make it out. i just figured the sarge let them get away with it.