seventh bullet
sovietwave
How did you come to that conclusion?
Ken Burns, The Vietnam War
- Thread starter TomUS
- Start date
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
I read somewhere that Ho Chi Minh at first sought US help for Vietnam, thinking that the Americans would be sympathetic to Vietnam's fight for independence from the French, he basically bought into the US brand at first. Was he in fact a communist at first? Or was it like the Cuba situation... socialish in terms of halting the exploitation and developing the peoples ability to live but not actually Communist if that makes sense.
not-bono-ever
meh
I usually look at neo colonialism wrt former colonies + the legacy only - it is distinct in this sense
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
It's not a conclusion, it's a question based on what you have said- it sounded to me like you considered the term "neo-colonialism" an invention of the "northern Staninists".
seventh bullet
sovietwave
You got it wrong then. And not surprising, since you came out with this:
Of course he was. He lived and studied in the USSR, was active in the Comintern prior to the first war and acted as a mediator in Hong Kong, between squabbling Communist groups, to form what became the Indochinese Communist Party (the first choice was Communist Party of Vietnam, and its narrower doctrinal tasks, but changed at the behest of Moscow).
Of course he was. He lived and studied in the USSR, was active in the Comintern prior to the first war and acted as a mediator in Hong Kong, between squabbling Communist groups, to form what became the Indochinese Communist Party (the first choice was Communist Party of Vietnam, and its narrower doctrinal tasks, but changed at the behest of Moscow).
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
I usually look at neo-colonialism as being after colonising the land became untenable, they colonise the economy and the politics built on already established colonial era networks. For example if you want to do business in Mali today, Paris is still an important point of call.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Why not have a look at it from their point of view?
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
I got it wrong because I asked a question? I could google this stuff but that would miss the point of asking people in this discussion. You still haven't answered whether or not you consider neo-colonialism a thing or just an invention of the northern Stalinists.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
I do, and within the specific context of ex-Indochina. And Stalinist is a good way to describe them. Or do you think they were just nationalists?
Ho did seek help from the US and the US should have given it to him but that would have meant going against France which was an ally against the USSR in Europe. He and the US were allies against Japan. I've often heard it said that Ho was a communist but a nationalist first. The series explains that Le Duan became the real power in N Vietnam fairly early in the war. I didn't know this.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
He was a Communist first and last.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
I think they were nationalists and communists. If Stalinism meant Moscow as the central authority of all communism then I doubt they could be both nationalist and Stalinist. To my mind they were definitely nationalists in that they wanted an end to foreign domination.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I think his main motivation in fighting the French and later the Americans was to expel foreign invasion/domination and unite Vietnam. His communist ideology was secondary to that.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Nationalism is a different beast in Marxism-Leninism and of particular historical development. The Stalinised Comintern of the late 1920s (of which the Vietnamese were a part) divided the world and its countries according to various 'stages' of social, economic and therefore political civilisation. And so the possibility or not for revolutionary change in these given stages saw the development of corresponding strategies and tactics for local Communists to follow and which were suited to these varying conditions. National liberation and a corresponding 'national democratic revolution' is one such task, before you can even think about arriving at the land Socialism. Communist-controlled movements act according to these 'rules' of revolution.
The Vietnamese adaptation of this had to get creative, given later partition, and also the fickleness of the Soviet Union when it came to its own doctrine. I am not a Communist (or 'Stalinist') but I can follow the threads of their thinking. Seriously, you could try and wiki it before coming back to argue that the sky isn't blue. It's as if politics wasn't involved at all, just some people being bad to other people.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
I see, so why be involved in forming a Communist Party, then?
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
You were doing alright until that last sentence. I could well imagine Ho Chi Minh thinking that the only way to escape foreign domination was to also be communist, the thinking being that outside of communism all nations will be dominated by capitalism- thus true national liberation would require communism (not to mention that Communisms ultimate goal was in theory anyway an end to the nation-state). I can't say I've read his thoughts and writings on the matter however so am reluctant to assume that's how HCM saw things. Anyway although HCM was a remarckable man we should get away from this Great Man theory you seem to be following, Vietnams struggle was a more complex beast than can be summed up in what HCM thought was going on.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
That's a wilful distortion of where I am coming from. I wasn't referring only to him, but the whole doctrine worked through by the Vietnamese Communists. Ho Chi Minh became a toothless mascot and was never 'the party theoretician.' Get over not knowing what you're talking about. We all blunder about at times.
He was also one of the founders of the French Communist Party. (He was living in Paris at the time, working in a hotel kitchen IIRC.)
The OSS parachuted in to meet him concluded he was more nationalist than communist and therefore OK'd American aid to him in fighting Japan. But, Uncle HO probably knew what to say to get what he wanted. I suppose we'll never know which was more important to him. Maybe he was 50/50.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
I think we know from his involvement with Communist politics. Did you not read anything above?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
**oops wrong thread**
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Crudely, the Communist tactics related to national liberation saw organisation that involved constructing a public non-Communist face and the deliberate disavowal of Communism, or even socialism for that matter, until what they termed a national democratic revolution had matured. The elitist Communist Party remained hidden, its reach to all strata of society done through various social and political organisations, even other parties. From these orgs potential cadres were spotted and recruited.
National liberation and completion of the national democratic revolution, then socialist construction within a national framework... Then, as we know generally, the failure of a far-flung communism on a world scale.
The Vietnamese had to do some work with this schema when the country was partioned following the French defeat, and did actually come up with a unique position within M-L doctrine, a people's national democratic revolution, to fit together how a part of the country (the DRV) was heading along a revised 'socialist' path while engaged in continuing struggle to complete national liberation in the south.
not-bono-ever
meh
Starting to get a little mawkish now - I am still fine with the LBJ/ McNamara going ons and the flailing Westmoreland issues from a historical perspective but this is no World At War is it ?
With hindsight, we now know that to be true.
If the US hadn't vigorously resisted communism in Vietnam, how many other nations would have been invaded and their people condemned to suffer decades of Communism?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Don't know - how many?
Just 14 years after the war ended, communism began collapsing with the fall of the Berlin wall and Ceausescu in Romania. The Vietnam war played a large part in the takeover of Cambodia by the Khmer Rouge. China and Vietnam had a border war after Vietnam overthrew the Khmer Rouge. The USSR and China had a border conflict at the peak of the war. The war didn't stop the USSR invasion of Afghanistan. The US viewed communism as a monolithic united threat which it was not. I can't see that any countries were spared communist invasion due to the war. Seems to me the war prolonged communism. What countries do you think would have suffered communist invasion if the US hadn't fought the war?
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marty21
One on one? You're crazy.
He did meet with the OSS in 1945 , but in the end the Americans supported the French .
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no we don't.
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