Ken Burns, The Vietnam War

[TomUS]

It's pretty good so far. I've watched episodes 1 and 2 of 10. Especially useful for those too young to remember it.

Watch Full Episodes Online of The Vietnam War | Broadcast Version on PBS

 

[marty21]

Looking forward to this whenever it does get shown in the UK.

 

[butchersapron]

I've seen mainstream sources - newseek for example - dimiss it as whitewash and near propaganda.

 

[marty21]

I can barely remember it and I'm 52 They were pulling out in 75 and I remember being aware of it then. I met a few Vietnam Vets in Swansea in 1984/5, there was an academic conference organised by my department, The Vietnam Experience .

 

[krtek a houby]

No better doc director for this.

 

[Idris2002]

I've seen mainstream sources - newseek for example - dimiss it as whitewash and near propaganda.

There's a very damning piece on it here:

America's amnesia - Mekong Review

 

[butchersapron]

There's a very damning piece on it here:

America's amnesia - Mekong Review

Ta - if those first lines about the docs first minutes are accurate...well, fucking hell.

 

[redsquirrel]

There's a very damning piece on it here:

America's amnesia - Mekong Review

Fucking hell, that sounds terrible. Thanks Idris

 

[not-bono-ever]

That's pretty damning. I am still going to watch it though - through a jaundiced eye

 

[maomao]

When I lived in the US (approximately 86/87) I remember adverts for a Vietnam documentary series on tv that ended with 'why didn't we just use the bomb?'. Excuse me if I don't waste 38 hours of my life watching the US whitewash a decade plus of meaningless slaughter.

 

[TomUS]

My impression isn't that it's whitewash at all. The first 2 episodes portray it as a disaster of ignorance, arrogance, and anticommunist paranoia on the part of the US gov. which bumbled in and replaced the French after their defeat. JFK doesn't come off looking good either. Ho Chi Minh is portrayed in a way more positive and sympathetic light than the US gov.

The brilliant, infuriating, boring, hypnotic Ken Burns documentary The Vietnam War

 

[camouflage]

There's a very damning piece on it here:

America's amnesia - Mekong Review

Everything wrong with the new ten-part PBS documentary on the Vietnam War is apparent in the first five minutes. A voice from nowhere intones about a war “begun in good faith” that somehow ran off the rails and killed millions of people. We see a firefight and a dead soldier in a body bag being winched into a helicopter, as the rotor goes thump, thump, thump, like a scene from Apocalypse Now. Then we cut to a funeral on Main Street and a coffin covered in Stars and Stripes, which multiply, as the camera zooms out, into dozens and then hundreds of flags, waving like a hex against warmongers who might be inclined to think that this film is insufficiently patriotic.

Yup, "58,000 people" died in the Vietnam Assistance, each one the starry-eyed son to a greiving mother back home. To be fair the "58,000" were at least mostly drafted, the merceneers of today have no such excuse.

 

[Idris2002]

Yup, "58,000 people" died in the Vietnam Assistance, each one the starry-eyed son to a greiving mother back home. To be fair the "58,000" were at least mostly drafted, the merceneers of today have no such excuse.

If you thought that was a hard one to read, try this:

Vietnam: A War on Civilians

 

[likesfish]

Yup, "58,000 people" died in the Vietnam Assistance, each one the starry-eyed son to a greiving mother back home. To be fair the "58,000" were at least mostly drafted, the merceneers of today have no such excuse.

Not really true its very much economic conscription and red white and blue shoved down their throat.
Unlike the british infantry scum of the earth joined for drink.

Vietnam was the wrong war fought insanely badly

 

[camouflage]

Not really true its very much economic conscription and red white and blue shoved down their throat.
Unlike the british infantry scum of the earth joined for drink.

Vietnam was the wrong war fought insanely badly

Like I said. Forcement is the second oldest profession.

What would have been the correct war?

 

[Idris2002]

Unlike the british infantry scum of the earth joined for drink.

He admits it openly.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

I'm very interested in the country and politics behind the war but what more do we really need to know?

It's been done to death if you'll excuse the phrase.

 

[tim]

Yup, the merceneers of today have no such excuse.

Except being poor

 

[1927]

Looking forward to this whenever it does get shown in the UK.

On BBC4, started last night.

 

[camouflage]

Except being poor

A decision based on economics. I need money and I'm not averse to bashing people in the mouth or taking orders from assholes thus I have no reason to not become a paid goon. May as well just own that shit rather than making out the economy made you do it.

The flag, the lads, civies don't understand, Haji, Charlie, Gook- rah rah rah.

 

[TomUS]

A decision based on economics. I need money and I'm not averse to bashing people in the mouth or taking orders from assholes thus I have no reason to not become a paid goon. May as well just own that shit rather than making out the economy made you do it.

The flag, the lads, civies don't understand, Haji, Charlie, Gook- rah rah rah.

If you're poor, 18, and see no future except menial jobs, and the gov offers you a pretty good job with good benefits and free education, it's understandable.

 

[camouflage]

If you're poor, 18, and see no future except menial jobs, and the gov offers you a pretty good job with good benefits and free education, it's understandable.

Ah, so what you're saying is joining the military of some government somewhere is a sort of school-boy error.

Just one of early lifes potential pitfalls, like joining a gang or being tricked into becoming a prostitute or having anti-vaxer parents. Although to be fair- having anti-vaxer parents doesn't involve being baited in by having cash waved in your face but yeah ok, fair point. Basically a "Psst... hey... hey kid... you like money kid? Eh? You like money??" line of work embarked upon after some "Hey kid... you hungry? Eh? You want some food kid? Food and cool clothes???" type career advice.

 

[rioted]

I was poor, 18,and saw no future beyond the menial job I was in, working 12 hour shifts in a hot, wet, dangerous paper mill for fuck-all pay. A job came up metal bashing in the local electronics factory. Cleaner, pleasanter shifts, sick pay, holiday pay, much better basic rate. Thought nothing about signing the Official Secrets stuff. A few months later I found out we were making bombsights for Corsairs bombing the fuck out of Vietnam. I left immediately. Went to picking spuds instead.

 

[not-bono-ever]

right- anyone else seen these couple of episodes ?

bearing in mind this is for the US market by US filmakers, and the opening scenes were the invocation of cultural memories as an easy hook, it has started to pan out Ok I think. It is good to see NV commentators speaking about their roles and memories - including Bao Ninh ( Sorrow of war writer) . There was enough of an overview of the IndoChine period to ensure that the French were shown as heavy handed freebooting colonialists who were despised, but also how the premise of the US just involvement was a shoddily constructed premise from the onset.There is enough background in there of both sides ( and the sideline players) so far to lead the viewer to view this debacle as a fuck up on a grand scale .It could well turn to mawkish sentimentality but not yet.I know enough history to fill in the blanks and pad out what may have been skimmed obviously

I could only read the first couple of paras of the mekong review, so am not sure where it leads and the issues they have with the series.

Views ?

 

[not-bono-ever]

.

 

[redsquirrel]

There is enough background in there of both sides ( and the sideline players) so far to lead the viewer to view this debacle as a fuck up on a grand scale

Which feeds into the longstanding establishment view - that this was a mess/mistake rather than a brutal act of colonialism involving the mass murder of millions.

 

[TomUS]

Which feeds into the longstanding establishment view - that this was a mess/mistake rather than a brutal act of colonialism involving the mass murder of millions.

It was the mass murder of millions, but I wouldn't call it colonialism in the traditional sense. It was a proxy war between the US and USSR/China with the US as the aggressor. The US didn't want to make a colony of Vietnam like France did. Vietnam had little in the way of natural resources to plunder. The profit came from the purchase of weapons by the US from US companies. From the US point of view, it was from the beginning a fight against communism. It was misguided and insane and actually strengthened communism and the Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians paid the price. There was never any need to fight communism. It eventually collaplsed on it's own.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Which feeds into the longstanding establishment view - that this was a mess/mistake rather than a brutal act of colonialism involving the mass murder of millions.

Imperialism not colonialism

 

[seventh bullet]

'Neo-colonialism' I believe the northern Stalinists described it as being.

 

[camouflage]

'Neo-colonialism' I believe the northern Stalinists described it as being.

You don't consider "neo-colonialism" a thing?