Keir Starmer's time is up

[campanula]

And basing anything on a social media post just emphasises the performative (and utterly hollow) way of doing politics - just shit, really.

 

[platinumsage]

And basing anything on a social media post just emphasises the performative (and utterly hollow) way of doing politics - just shit, really.

That's one way of looking at, but these are public statements people are making. Just because they are on social media doesn't mean they should get a free pass to say stuff that would harm their career if said in an actual speech or TV interview.

 

[campanula]

That's one way of looking at, but these are public statements people are making. Just because they are on social media doesn't mean they should get a free pass to say stuff that would harm their career if said in an actual speech or TV interview.

I don't think a single statement should be seen as indicative of anything, really...unless placed in a much broader context of actions, voting results in parliamentary bills, actual choices made and positions taken over a period of time. I don't, for a second think RLB was sacked because of a single rt but it is fundamentally dishonest of Starmer to pretend that this is so.
Or, to put it another way, I am supportive of people in my community who are workers in a deeply unfair capitalist system, disabled, victims of prejudice, working class people who are being fucked over...despite knowing that many of them hold some dubious political positions, can be equally bigoted and unpleasant...because I believe in solidarity and equality, which can only be achieved if we can also accommodate difference within a wider class struggle.

 

[sleaterkinney]

How would RLB redeem herself in your eyes?

Look, I’ve copied tweets in haste myself - a few times, it can happen - you just skim read a piece, it’s been retweeted by someone you know, whatever. But she had an opportunity to disown Peake and she didn’t and given the problems the Labour left had with AS she deserved to go because of that.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Seems about right.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Sadly, Labour doesn't see it's role as leading anything outside Parliament.

This is especially so in industrial relations. The idea that a Labour leader could challenge union general secretaries by pushing for effective strikes is so far beyond the pale that even Corbyn never hinted at it. At least he didn't pull the usual trick of condemning strikes (which is faint praise at best)

This is a bizarre take. Can you give one real life example where you believe that a Labour leader might have done this and when those being told to lose money and possibly their jobs would have done as ordered?

I don’t know if you’ve ever been on strike but in my experience you are badly wide of the mark. By that I mean that the only effective strikes I’ve ever been involved in are the ones that come from the shopfloor. Normally,
despite the lazy twats in union jobs being involved, not because of them.

The idea that workers would strike because the leader of the Labour Party demanded their union called them out - that workers are simply instruments or stage armies that can be called on and off the battlefield at the behest of a politician - is fanciful to put it politely.

 

[kebabking]

Look, I’ve copied tweets in haste myself - a few times, it can happen - you just skim read a piece, it’s been retweeted by someone you know, whatever. But she had an opportunity to disown Peake and she didn’t and given the problems the Labour left had with AS she deserved to go because of that.

I'm personally of the view that if you say 'sorry, I didn't read it properly - phone rang, kids were playing up etc.. and I liked it/retweeted it without noticing the offending bit. My apologies' people will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Given that it was one line or whatever in a much longer piece, I'd be prepared to accept that - the problem is, this isn't the first time RLB has failed on the AS test, as she herself has said.

It's not that she's some hate filled Jew basher, she's not - the problem (as it appears from the last few years), is that like Corbyn, is that she's either blind to it when it's surrounded by other stuff she agrees with, or prepared to overlook it when the person involved is 'sound'.

It could well be that the phone rang, or the kids were playing up, and she just missed it - she's human, she has the same pressures and distractions as the rest of us - the problem for that charitable interpretation, that benefit of the doubt, is that - as she herself has said - it's not the first time she's been distracted, or not noticed, or not anything, when these AS tropes flash past.

 

[19force8]

This is a bizarre take. Can you give one real life example where you believe that a Labour leader might have done this and when those being told to lose money and possibly their jobs would have done as ordered?

I don’t know if you’ve ever been on strike but in my experience you are badly wide of the mark. By that I mean that the only effective strikes I’ve ever been involved in are the ones that come from the shopfloor. Normally,
despite the lazy twats in union jobs being involved, not because of them.

The idea that workers would strike because the leader of the Labour Party demanded their union called them out - that workers are simply instruments or stage armies that can be called on and off the battlefield at the behest of a politician - is fanciful to put it politely.

You're misinterpreting. I didn't say a Labour leader should tell people to go on strike. I talked about pushing for effective action and challenging general secretaries. Leadership is about more than giving orders.

I've been on strike several times. I'm also old enough to remember when successful action was called by union leaderships with and without ballots. So maybe ease up on the patronising bullshit and learn some union history.

The only examples I can recall this late on a Sunday evening of Labour leading any struggles outside parliament were by councils and even then only Poplar succeeded and that was nearly 90 years ago.

The idea of any extra-paliamentary action is so alien to the PLP that even Corbyn, despite his many qualities, never so much as hinted that councils might take a stand over cuts.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

You're misinterpreting. I didn't say a Labour leader should tell people to go on strike. I talked about pushing for effective action and challenging general secretaries. Leadership is about more than giving orders.

I've been on strike several times. I'm also old enough to remember when successful action was called by union leaderships with and without ballots. So maybe ease up on the patronising bullshit and learn some union history.

The only examples I can recall this late on a Sunday evening of Labour leading any struggles outside parliament were by councils and even then only Poplar succeeded and that was nearly 90 years ago.

The idea of any extra-paliamentary action is so alien to the PLP that even Corbyn, despite his many qualities, never so much as hinted that councils might take a stand over cuts.

I’m always happy to learn some union history. So tell me, would any of the strikes you’ve been involved in have been more successful had the leader of the LP pushed the leader of your union to adopt a different or more effective approach??

I agree with you about Labour councils. But that’s a different question. They are, nominally, under the same democratic policies and approach as the PLP and the Leader.

 

[The39thStep]

You're misinterpreting. I didn't say a Labour leader should tell people to go on strike. I talked about pushing for effective action and challenging general secretaries. Leadership is about more than giving orders.

I've been on strike several times. I'm also old enough to remember when successful action was called by union leaderships with and without ballots. So maybe ease up on the patronising bullshit and learn some union history.

The only examples I can recall this late on a Sunday evening of Labour leading any struggles outside parliament were by councils and even then only Poplar succeeded and that was nearly 90 years ago.

The idea of any extra-paliamentary action is so alien to the PLP that even Corbyn, despite his many qualities, never so much as hinted that councils might take a stand over cuts.

I take your point about the PLP generally but aside from Poplar theres a few more examples of Councils :Lambeth under Knight, Clay Cross with the Skinner Brothers, Liverpool under Militant, Livingstone GLC over fares, possibly even Blunkett's Sheffield? Now none of these would have occurred without a wider context of working class organisation at least critical of the PLP and often outside of the Labour Party and very often against the Labour Party and the PLP itself.

 

[The39thStep]

Seems about right.

The quote is actually from a fella called Andrew Murray who spent 40 years in the Communist Party in an article here Vol 50: Socialist Register 2014: Registering Class | Socialist Register
He says many things and we can all pick and chooses but on this .below, he is bang on the money

 

[Humberto]

I wonder what proportion of people in this country think they are being treated justly? Economically, we are headed for the worst of times. It's times like these we need to think ahead. If we saw how they moved it in their favour after 2008, what will happen next? They will grant each other impunity and absolution and stuff their pockets.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I’m beginning to dislike the word ‘trope’. I must admit I had never even come across it until fairly recently, but now it’s everywhere, and every time I read it it’s accompanied by the word ‘anti-semitic’. Its usage is accusatory, denunciatory and indiscriminate. The advantage the user of the term acquires is that they no longer need proof, evidence or logical connection between other people’s statements and antisemitism. All they need is the accusation. You don’t even need to be aware that others in the past have used these tropes. The fact that you use them, whatever they may be, is enough to convict you of at least courting with anti-semitism, of not being as aware as you should be of whatever it is you haven’t actually said. I dislike the word even more now.

 

[19force8]

I take your point about the PLP generally but aside from Poplar theres a few more examples of Councils :Lambeth under Knight, Clay Cross with the Skinner Brothers, Liverpool under Militant, Livingstone GLC over fares, possibly even Blunkett's Sheffield? Now none of these would have occurred without a wider context of working class organisation at least critical of the PLP and often outside of the Labour Party and very often against the Labour Party and the PLP itself.

Indeed, I'd actually forgotten about the GLC. Although it could be said Poplar was the only one to succeed in that it stood the test of time.

 

[Pickman's model]

I’m beginning to dislike the word ‘trope’. I must admit I had never even come across it until fairly recently, but now it’s everywhere, and every time I read it it’s accompanied by the word ‘anti-semitic’. Its usage is accusatory, denunciatory and indiscriminate. The advantage the user of the term acquires is that they no longer need proof, evidence or logical connection between other people’s statements and antisemitism. All they need is the accusation. You don’t even need to be aware that others in the past have used these tropes. The fact that you use them, whatever they may be, is enough to convict you of at least courting with anti-semitism, of not being as aware as you should be of whatever it is you haven’t actually said. I dislike the word even more now.

Trope, c'est trop

 

[Serge Forward]

I’m beginning to dislike the word ‘trope’. I must admit I had never even come across it until fairly recently, but now it’s everywhere, and every time I read it it’s accompanied by the word ‘anti-semitic’. Its usage is accusatory, denunciatory and indiscriminate. The advantage the user of the term acquires is that they no longer need proof, evidence or logical connection between other people’s statements and antisemitism. All they need is the accusation. You don’t even need to be aware that others in the past have used these tropes. The fact that you use them, whatever they may be, is enough to convict you of at least courting with anti-semitism, of not being as aware as you should be of whatever it is you haven’t actually said. I dislike the word even more now.

It's used as another version of the old "statistics have shown" (no statistic given) and "it's a well-known fact" style of arguing. That said, as some statistics and facts are real, so too are tropes. They can all be used correctly and in good faith.

 

[Knotted]

I’m beginning to dislike the word ‘trope’. I must admit I had never even come across it until fairly recently, but now it’s everywhere, and every time I read it it’s accompanied by the word ‘anti-semitic’. Its usage is accusatory, denunciatory and indiscriminate. The advantage the user of the term acquires is that they no longer need proof, evidence or logical connection between other people’s statements and antisemitism. All they need is the accusation. You don’t even need to be aware that others in the past have used these tropes. The fact that you use them, whatever they may be, is enough to convict you of at least courting with anti-semitism, of not being as aware as you should be of whatever it is you haven’t actually said. I dislike the word even more now.

I think Maxine Peake did repeat an anti-semitic trope (ie. something that is part of the repeated rhetoric of what anti-semites are saying in practice) but in her doing so it should be a matter of encouraging correction rather than denunciation. And she did indeed correct herself, and her correction was perfect - ie. she doesn't wish to add fodder to racism and anti-semitism. It is very useful to be aware of these things, and I think we should talk about tropes more rather than less if anything. Otherwise it is an abstract debate along the lines "well I didn't mean all Jews", ie. racism has a certain general form in terms of sweeping generalisations, stereotypes etc., rather than the living, breathing specifics of anti-semitism/racism.

But yes people can accidentally repeat these tropes especially when anti-semites are trying present their bigotry in terms of eg. criticisms of Israel. But the cure is to have greater awareness of these tropes not less. I think this is crucial to anti-racism and nurturing a culture of patience and explanation as opposed to moralism and denunciation is more important than Labour Party optics.

 

[19force8]

I’m always happy to learn some union history. So tell me, would any of the strikes you’ve been involved in have been more successful had the leader of the LP pushed the leader of your union to adopt a different or more effective approach??

I agree with you about Labour councils. But that’s a different question. They are, nominally, under the same democratic policies and approach as the PLP and the Leader.

Imagine for a moment a Labour leader had got behind the teachers and urged the many thousands of members who are teachers to stand firm on the reopening of schools. Ridiculous, I know, but do you think it would have resulted in fewer schools being reopened or more?

The thing about Labour councils isn't a different question it's a key part of the compartmentalisation problem. There is absolutely no leadership other than "you won't get any support if you fight the cuts." The worst example of this was Kinnock using mistakes in Liverpool not as an opportunity to give a lead, but for factional advantage.

 

[Spandex]

I’m beginning to dislike the word ‘trope’. I must admit I had never even come across it until fairly recently, but now it’s everywhere, and every time I read it it’s accompanied by the word ‘anti-semitic’. Its usage is accusatory, denunciatory and indiscriminate. The advantage the user of the term acquires is that they no longer need proof, evidence or logical connection between other people’s statements and antisemitism. All they need is the accusation. You don’t even need to be aware that others in the past have used these tropes. The fact that you use them, whatever they may be, is enough to convict you of at least courting with anti-semitism, of not being as aware as you should be of whatever it is you haven’t actually said. I dislike the word even more now.

After the Nazis' attempted genocide of Jews explicit anti-Semitism became beyond the pale. No longer was it acceptable to openly complain eg. that rich Jews were secretly running governments and that they had to be stopped. But just because it wasn't acceptable to say it, 1000 years of anti-Semetic thought didn't just disappear. It was still widely out there. But if everyone except the most bigoted neo-Nazis was going round saying they have nothing against Jews, then how do you spot that anti-Semetic current that continued? By looking at what people are saying and seeing if it contains those age old anti-Semitic claims about Jews. By looking for anti-Semitic tropes. As with all ideological thought, people can be quite unaware that what they are saying contains assumptions based on well recognized ideas (see also liberals).

Now, there's a lot to criticize Israel for: it's a colonial state founded on ethnic cleansing that brutally represses the native population. But in criticizing the Israeli state people often slip into those ancient... what's the word..? Oh yeah... anti-Semitic tropes. And where that happens it's right that people are called out on it, keeping criticism of Israel on the Israeli state and its actions and not slipping into propagating anti-Semitic ideas that go back to the dark ages.

 

[LDC]

I think Maxine Peake did repeat an anti-semitic trope...

I agree (although I think she probably did so in ignorance), but there's plenty of denial and obfuscation in and outside the Labour party that was even the case though, and that's a really difficult starting point to deal with this.

 

[bimble]

Ye but if people stopped “indiscriminately and without any evidence” going on about tropes just think how much less antisemitism there’d be! You’d only have the ones left who say I hate Jews, Jews smell etc. And then nobody would have to spend any time learning or thinking about all this and that’d be great wouldn’t it.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Imagine for a moment a Labour leader had got behind the teachers and urged the many thousands of members who are teachers to stand firm on the reopening of schools. Ridiculous, I know, but do you think it would have resulted in fewer schools being reopened or more?

The thing about Labour councils isn't a different question it's a key part of the compartmentalisation problem. There is absolutely no leadership other than "you won't get any support if you fight the cuts." The worst example of this was Kinnock using mistakes in Liverpool not as an opportunity to give a lead, but for factional advantage.

That’s not the same though is it? Asking a Labour leader to more actively support a dispute is not the same as demanding they they push union leaders or workers to take more effective action. The former should be a basic requirement. The latter I see no scope or legitimacy for. There is already a massive democratic disconnect in unions with unelected bureaucrats trying to call the shots and attempting to insert themselves into workplaces where they know, frankly, fuck all. We don’t need another layer of top down orders from politicians. Let’s put it this way - where I work if Corbyn or Starmer intervened in a dispute and was perceived to be telling us what to do or how to be ‘more effective’ members and stewards (bar the LP groupies of whom there are less than 10) would be raging. It would destroy shopfloor unity at a stroke.

I agree with you on the point about councils but it is an entirely different question in terms of process, agency and legitimacy.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

What Maxine Peake did was make an allegation which turned out to be incorrect. There’s no need to invoke any trope, but I can’t stop you if you really must. There was nothing anti-Semitic in what she said. She was claiming a link between the Israeli state and US policing practices. There is an obvious similarity between the tactics and procedures used by some US police forces and Israeli forces in Palestine. I think she can be forgiven for making assumptions, knowing as we all now do that US police officers often go to Israel for training.

RLB’s retweet was only blown up out of all proportion because Starmer wants to get rid of the Corbynite faction. That should be the thing to take away from all this.

 

[Knotted]

What Maxine Peake did was make an allegation which turned out to be incorrect. There’s no need to invoke any trope, but I can’t stop you if you really must. There was nothing anti-Semitic in what she said. She was claiming a link between the Israeli state and US policing practices. There is an obvious similarity between the tactics and procedures used by some US police forces and Israeli forces in Palestine. I think she can be forgiven for making assumptions, knowing as we all now do that US police officers often go to Israel for training.

RLB’s retweet was only blown up out of all proportion because Starmer wants to get rid of the Corbynite faction. That should be the thing to take away from all this.

I agree with all of this except the bit about there not being a need to talk about tropes.

 

[Pickman's model]

What Maxine Peake did was make an allegation which turned out to be incorrect. There’s no need to invoke any trope, but I can’t stop you if you really must. There was nothing anti-Semitic in what she said. She was claiming a link between the Israeli state and US policing practices. There is an obvious similarity between the tactics and procedures used by some US police forces and Israeli forces in Palestine. I think she can be forgiven for making assumptions, knowing as we all now do that US police officers often go to Israel for training.

RLB’s retweet was only blown up out of all proportion because Starmer wants to get rid of the Corbynite faction. That should be the thing to take away from all this.

not to mention that much of what was done can be traced back to procedures shared by the ze with the us

 

[kebabking]

What Maxine Peake did was make an allegation which turned out to be incorrect. There’s no need to invoke any trope, but I can’t stop you if you really must. There was nothing anti-Semitic in what she said. She was claiming a link between the Israeli state and US policing practices. There is an obvious similarity between the tactics and procedures used by some US police forces and Israeli forces in Palestine. I think she can be forgiven for making assumptions, knowing as we all now do that US police officers often go to Israel for training.

RLB’s retweet was only blown up out of all proportion because Starmer wants to get rid of the Corbynite faction. That should be the thing to take away from all this.

Sorry, but this is fundamentally the problem that many on the left have with willful blindness to AS - Peake did not 'make a technical error', she repeated a frankly laughable conspiracy theory (that the Mossad, who are all just sitting around being bored with nothing going on in the ME, got on a plane to Shitkicker, Oaklahoma to teach a bunch of no-mark cops how to kneel on someone's throat).

The laughable nature of it is irrelevant to the casually anti-Semitic conspiraloon because it's got the words 'Israel' and 'Secret' in it, which makes it instantly believable, and not just believable, but certain, because Israel has its secret tentacles everywhere, in finance, in the media, in governments...

Through, you know, the Joos.

If MP had wanted to talk about racist, brutal policing she could easily have talked about China and the Uigyers, or Brazil and it's indigenous peoples, or half-a-hundred other examples - yes, including Israel - but why is it always Israel, and never China, or Brazil (for example) that gets mentioned, and why, when it's Israel, is the theme of it's 'secret influence' always tagging along there, a theme that exactly copies the theme of Israel's 'secret influence' in the media, or in finance?

It's because those tropes are based on anti-Semitic views of Jews - in the shadows, the hidden hand, owning the world, running the banks.

The charitable version is that it's not seeing the wood for the trees, the less charitable version - and I'm afraid the one I believe to be true - is that anti-Semitism is the good racism, because it's about Israel, and capitalism.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

The charitable version is that it's not seeing the wood for the trees, the less charitable version - and I'm afraid the one I believe to be true - is that anti-Semitism is the good racism, because it's about Israel, and capitalism.

The state of Israel is not the same thing as international Jewry or any such thing. It is a specific state in a specific part of the world in its own specific timeline. It has been supported by the USA for years, diplomatically, politically and militarily. There are and have been links between the two states. Plenty of anti-Zionist Jews are and have been more vehemently critical of Israel and Israeli policies than Maxine Peake or Rebecca Long Bailey. Jewish Voice for Labour are one example, routinely ignored or denigrated by many. Jewish friends of mine (not in the Labour Party) don’t recognise the validity of these tropes, at least not in the way that they are currently being used as a weapon by the right wing of the
Labour Party and by the media.

 

[Knotted]

Sorry, but this is fundamentally the problem that many on the left have with willful blindness to AS - Peake did not 'make a technical error', she repeated a frankly laughable conspiracy theory (that the Mossad, who are all just sitting around being bored with nothing going on in the ME, got on a plane to Shitkicker, Oaklahoma to teach a bunch of no-mark cops how to kneel on someone's throat).

The laughable nature of it is irrelevant to the casually anti-Semitic conspiraloon because it's got the words 'Israel' and 'Secret' in it, which makes it instantly believable, and not just believable, but certain, because Israel has its secret tentacles everywhere, in finance, in the media, in governments...

Through, you know, the Joos.

If MP had wanted to talk about racist, brutal policing she could easily have talked about China and the Uigyers, or Brazil and it's indigenous peoples, or half-a-hundred other examples - yes, including Israel - but why is it always Israel, and never China, or Brazil (for example) that gets mentioned, and why, when it's Israel, is the theme of it's 'secret influence' always tagging along there, a theme that exactly copies the theme of Israel's 'secret influence' in the media, or in finance?

It's because those tropes are based on anti-Semitic views of Jews - in the shadows, the hidden hand, owning the world, running the banks.

The charitable version is that it's not seeing the wood for the trees, the less charitable version - and I'm afraid the one I believe to be true - is that anti-Semitism is the good racism, because it's about Israel, and capitalism.

No, let's be honest about this. What Maxine Peake said was not a conspiracy theory. Israeli security services really have been training US police and that fact is significant though probably not relevant to the George Floyd case. What she did was say something a) technically incorrect and b) that aligns with what anti-semites such as Patrick Heningsen are saying. It's a simple matter of not giving succour to the likes of that, anything more and you are asserting Peake is in this deeper than you have any reason to believe she is.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sorry, but this is fundamentally the problem that many on the left have with willful blindness to AS - Peake did not 'make a technical error', she repeated a frankly laughable conspiracy theory (that the Mossad, who are all just sitting around being bored with nothing going on in the ME, got on a plane to Shitkicker, Oaklahoma to teach a bunch of no-mark cops how to kneel on someone's throat).

The laughable nature of it is irrelevant to the casually anti-Semitic conspiraloon because it's got the words 'Israel' and 'Secret' in it, which makes it instantly believable, and not just believable, but certain, because Israel has its secret tentacles everywhere, in finance, in the media, in governments...

Through, you know, the Joos.

If MP had wanted to talk about racist, brutal policing she could easily have talked about China and the Uigyers, or Brazil and it's indigenous peoples, or half-a-hundred other examples - yes, including Israel - but why is it always Israel, and never China, or Brazil (for example) that gets mentioned, and why, when it's Israel, is the theme of it's 'secret influence' always tagging along there, a theme that exactly copies the theme of Israel's 'secret influence' in the media, or in finance?

It's because those tropes are based on anti-Semitic views of Jews - in the shadows, the hidden hand, owning the world, running the banks.

The charitable version is that it's not seeing the wood for the trees, the less charitable version - and I'm afraid the one I believe to be true - is that anti-Semitism is the good racism, because it's about Israel, and capitalism.

training in repressive tactics is often provided in secret, or at least not given any prominence. the origins of tactics used at abu ghraib have hardly been all over the papers - they certainly weren't discussed in anything i saw at the time of the great scandal years back. and the activities of the ze or the tactics and information they offer spaces to discuss are often fairly hidden away. i think you've really got to be looking for anti-semitism to see it in this sort of thing.

 

[two sheds]

Sorry, but this is fundamentally the problem that many on the left have with willful blindness to AS - Peake did not 'make a technical error', she repeated a frankly laughable conspiracy theory (that the Mossad, who are all just sitting around being bored with nothing going on in the ME, got on a plane to Shitkicker, Oaklahoma to teach a bunch of no-mark cops how to kneel on someone's throat).

Ah I missed that in her quote. Yes that's disgusting and definitely anti-semitic if she said all that. I thought she'd just said that the US had just had some training from them.