Socialist Alliance, Socialist Unity, and even now Corbynism comes to mind, though towards the end some very good policies which would help W/C were coming to the fore.
Keir Starmer's time is up
- Thread starter agricola
- Start date
You haven't mentioned it is used from the left, as well, 'racist trope' etc.
Brixton Hatter
Home is south London mate
Starmer calls Black Lives Matter a "moment" and suggests their proposals to defund the police are nonsense. Fuck me this guy is useless and surely this puts the nail in the coffin of any remaining claims he may have had to be an anti-racist.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you haven't mentioned its widespread use in literary criticism.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
if i was in his position i would be saying something like 'most people don't want the police defunded, they want them to do their job. they want everyone to be treated equally by the police. they want them to focus on cutting the crime which affects people most. they want crimes reported to be investigated. under my leadership the labour party agrees with and supports the black lives matter campaign, and a labour government will work with bame communities to place those concerns within the policies we pursue'.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
Something like that would be so easy for him to say. Or so I'd have thought. The man is clearly more intent on appealing to "sensible" politics than in addressing concerns about the police.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it ought to be easy to say!
the simple narrative here is the history of the police and black people with on one hand the murder of stephen lawrence, the pisspoor early police response to that which let the murderers walk free and the subsequent macpherson report - in essence a history of treating crimes against bame people with less diligence than they ought; on the other hand a sorry history of killing black people and policing bame communities as though they were the enemy and the cops an occupying force. surely - SURELY - a leader of the labour party ought to be able to say 'these things are wrong and the labour party stands for a police force which serves all of us equally, which doesn't treat black people like second class citizens, which doesn't kill them, which treats crimes against black people as they would against white'. i can't imagine any previous leader of the labour party in the past fifty years talking like starmer is. harold wilson would have pointed to the race relations act etc and said 'we will build on this to incorporate bame people into british life' or similar. callaghan wouldn't have stood for it. even kinnock and blair and miliband would have been on the ball. it's frankly pitiful.
Lord Camomile
Yipchaa!
Sadly, I there are many who would agree with him. The "no, not like that" brigade.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
He could have also acknowledged the importance of investing in social care, education, drug rehab, jobs etc. to tackle the causes of crime and therefore the need for police (this is the point of defund the police).
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
No one makes dramas about social care or rehab or job creation or tackling the causes of crime etc whereas a look at the TV listings for any night of the week will show who does get dramas made about them
Until these things are seen as as or more important than the police we'll always be in that place where the police are portrayed as the saviours of society (the male cop, and it's almost always a male cop with the broken marriage, clearly puts society before himself and far ahead of his wife)
ska invita
back on the other side
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The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Is anyone actually calling for defunding the police over here?
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
BLMUK, who in response to this Starmer video have now "clarified" their earlier call to do just that:
Brixton Hatter
Home is south London mate
Exactly. Tackling the causes, not the symptoms.
But I'd also like to defund the militarisation of the police, the facial recognition tools etc.
But I'd also like to defund the militarisation of the police, the facial recognition tools etc.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
To most people having experienced cuts in neighbourhood policing , burglaries where the crime is just reported , anti social behaviour where nothing is done the idea that the Poluce are defunded to fund preventive services makes little or no sense . Perhaps it’s an unfortunate trans Atlantic slogan that’s been imported but it just doesn’t fit . Preventive services have been cut since Cameron took office , I’d whole heartedly support a campaign for them to be funded anti gang strategies , more funding for drug alcohol and mental health services , prevention for vulnerable kids recruited into country lines etc etc . However it’s not the funding for police v funding for prevention that is really the argument is it ?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Aside from facial recognition which has been used for easily a decade or more via cctv and could hardly be described as militarisation, what exactly are you thinking of when you say ‘ defund the militarisation of the Police ‘ in the UK ?
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Shouldn’t Labour be going a bit further than ‘tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime’ patter?
Surely, given their commitment to community engagement and deep community organising why aren’t Labour calling for effective strategies that necessarily need to be local and which fully involve the local community in their design and implementation? For example, a strategy that works in a district of a city might look different to one that might work in a town?
The question of the role of the police, it’s resources and approach would be integrated in to these plans. They would also be subordinate to the wider plan.
‘Defund the police’ as a slogan should be understood as the empty slogan it is. It’s reflective of a fantasy rather than an expression of concrete lived experience. What communities do want, is some say and control over their areas and how they are made safe and how they are and by who.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I’m not sure aside from a few comments from Nandy that there is any commitment to community organising or engagement at all tbh .
Tbh there is already a fairly high integration of services at a local level however you are absolutely right about the lack of community involvement in setting priorities and the standards they expect .There was some attempt to do this around the last years of Labour and the first years of the coalition but it was hampered by trying to merge national targets with local targets , the money from govt following that national targets . There were also some no go areas ie child protection , missing from homes , ‘problem families’ in which there was no community involvement and a leave it to the professionals type approach always passed off as ‘evidence based practice’ . Youth Services inspected by Offsted aren’t local community friendly , over zealous auditing isn’t community friendly , setting targets on the voluntary and community sector in which more time is spent on adhering you those processes than the actual outcomes aren’t community friendly . There’s also the tendency to reach for the large charity organisations to deliver services rather than local providers because they are good at following all the procedures and caveats . But yes you are right local plans delivered at local levels empowering communities would make a huge difference. The question is how can it be delivered by those communities without the funders turning off the taps .
DJWrongspeed
radio eros
It's good time to reflect on Social Media and the internet. Where was the "think before you use" moment for politicians. Twitter et al came upon society without anyone thinking through what it's consequences were.
Who makes the decisions who enframe us in this technology?
I'm referring to all the all preceding mess politicians have go themselves into on twitter & fb.
Who makes the decisions who enframe us in this technology?
I'm referring to all the all preceding mess politicians have go themselves into on twitter & fb.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
As it happens I started reading the US book The End of Policing by Vitale today. From which the Defund the Police idea comes from.
It is mainly about US.
The last big change in this country to policing was the 80s. I remember the first Brixton Riot. Police didnt have the equipment to deal with it. By the mid 80s they were tooled up and ready for riots. The Miners strike was another example. This would be the police, following Vitale, reverting to their primary purpose which is controling Black people and the working class to protect the interests of elites.
Its not about a few rotten apples. When push comes to shove even "nice" police have to get stuck in.
So whilst police here dont have grenade launchers they are more tooled up for trouble than when I remember growing up. From the 80s they "militarised" to extent they are trained and equiped for dealing with social disorder.
Vitale would argue that keeping people safe from burglary is minor part of police job and they arent that effective at it.
On this country.
I do live in area with large BAME population. Brixton area. Relations with police have been strained for decades. Community meeting after a murder in my area last year and local people were criticising police for disrespecting youth and also complaining youth services have been cut. So like the new BLM they wanted money spent on youth services.
Recently since the new BLM here I've seen the police being confronted more. For example opposite my flat few weeks ago police tried to arrest some poor old Black guy. As usual three police vehicles. Several people came over to film police and argue with them. Obviously didn't know the guy but were walking in the street at the time. I used to see that a lot in 80s. One thing BLM have done is give people confidence to question police once more. Which is good.
So I would say BLM arent that out of line with how my local Black community feel.
There is whole lot of funding for policing which should be up for criticism. The "Prevent" strategy the "Gangs Matrix" are two. The money spent on these would be better spent on youth services.
It is mainly about US.
The last big change in this country to policing was the 80s. I remember the first Brixton Riot. Police didnt have the equipment to deal with it. By the mid 80s they were tooled up and ready for riots. The Miners strike was another example. This would be the police, following Vitale, reverting to their primary purpose which is controling Black people and the working class to protect the interests of elites.
Its not about a few rotten apples. When push comes to shove even "nice" police have to get stuck in.
So whilst police here dont have grenade launchers they are more tooled up for trouble than when I remember growing up. From the 80s they "militarised" to extent they are trained and equiped for dealing with social disorder.
Vitale would argue that keeping people safe from burglary is minor part of police job and they arent that effective at it.
On this country.
I do live in area with large BAME population. Brixton area. Relations with police have been strained for decades. Community meeting after a murder in my area last year and local people were criticising police for disrespecting youth and also complaining youth services have been cut. So like the new BLM they wanted money spent on youth services.
Recently since the new BLM here I've seen the police being confronted more. For example opposite my flat few weeks ago police tried to arrest some poor old Black guy. As usual three police vehicles. Several people came over to film police and argue with them. Obviously didn't know the guy but were walking in the street at the time. I used to see that a lot in 80s. One thing BLM have done is give people confidence to question police once more. Which is good.
So I would say BLM arent that out of line with how my local Black community feel.
There is whole lot of funding for policing which should be up for criticism. The "Prevent" strategy the "Gangs Matrix" are two. The money spent on these would be better spent on youth services.
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
On communiity organising and the Labour party.
There are two kinds:
Steve Reed leader of Council ( now MP. Was very New Labour) some years back made Lambeth Council a Coop Council. This was about changing welfare state from top down ( creating dependency culture) to bottom up. With local community encouraged to take on services. It was partly a privatisation agenda. Similar to Cameron Big Society. Also brought in area managers who were supposed to consult with community in neighbourhood forums. Which sort of worked until people started to use it to oppose particular Council decisions. Then it turned a bit unpleasant.
Second recent one was successful campaign to protect a local shop being evicted by a property developer. Campaign was led by the new younger members of Lambeth Labour. Those who joined due to Corbyn. Which was very popular locally. It was a campaign against gentrification. I could see some of my more Starmer type Cllrs weren't comfortable with a public campaign.
So community organising always has been around. Its that the Labour party ( in my experience locally) hasn't been keen on it for years. Im afraid that now they have got rid of Corbyn ( my long standing Cllrs were quite open about hostility to Corbyn and what he represented) the new young membership who want to do community campaigning will leave. I hope not.
All my New Labour Cllrs wanted Starmer- I check there twitter and they wanted him from the start of the leadership race.
There are two kinds:
Steve Reed leader of Council ( now MP. Was very New Labour) some years back made Lambeth Council a Coop Council. This was about changing welfare state from top down ( creating dependency culture) to bottom up. With local community encouraged to take on services. It was partly a privatisation agenda. Similar to Cameron Big Society. Also brought in area managers who were supposed to consult with community in neighbourhood forums. Which sort of worked until people started to use it to oppose particular Council decisions. Then it turned a bit unpleasant.
Second recent one was successful campaign to protect a local shop being evicted by a property developer. Campaign was led by the new younger members of Lambeth Labour. Those who joined due to Corbyn. Which was very popular locally. It was a campaign against gentrification. I could see some of my more Starmer type Cllrs weren't comfortable with a public campaign.
So community organising always has been around. Its that the Labour party ( in my experience locally) hasn't been keen on it for years. Im afraid that now they have got rid of Corbyn ( my long standing Cllrs were quite open about hostility to Corbyn and what he represented) the new young membership who want to do community campaigning will leave. I hope not.
All my New Labour Cllrs wanted Starmer- I check there twitter and they wanted him from the start of the leadership race.
ska invita
back on the other side
as came up on the BLM thread...
NYPD annual budget = 5.6 billion USD
Met police annual budget = 3.24 billion GBP
Big money shitly spent, id be all up for defund the police as BLM set out - using massive chunks of that budget proactively to improve peoples lives and opportunities.
Anyway this thread is about Brave Brave Sir Starmer. The most depressing thing about the clip is not him misrepresetning and distancing himself from defunding the police, its him saying BLM is not a movement its a moment, and its just a reaction to an event far far way in the USA. Its a total insult, and is so far the worse thing I've heard him say or do as party leader. I can only hope BLM-UK hound him and Labour for the next four years and make him somehow choke on his "its a moment" line.
NYPD annual budget = 5.6 billion USD
Met police annual budget = 3.24 billion GBP
Big money shitly spent, id be all up for defund the police as BLM set out - using massive chunks of that budget proactively to improve peoples lives and opportunities.
Anyway this thread is about Brave Brave Sir Starmer. The most depressing thing about the clip is not him misrepresetning and distancing himself from defunding the police, its him saying BLM is not a movement its a moment, and its just a reaction to an event far far way in the USA. Its a total insult, and is so far the worse thing I've heard him say or do as party leader. I can only hope BLM-UK hound him and Labour for the next four years and make him somehow choke on his "its a moment" line.
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I’ve had more newsletters and emails about community involvement from the Cooperative Party than the Labour Party in the last six months.
I know two sides of the same coin, but one seems more interested in local people than going on tv and spouting sound bites.
I know two sides of the same coin, but one seems more interested in local people than going on tv and spouting sound bites.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I think its healthy to be critical of both Prevent and The Gangs Matrix but I've never seen anyone propose an alternative to either.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Why should I propose an alternative?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The anti-gang strategies of today will be the anti-political activist strategies of tomorrow
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
How about doing things differently in a way that works without placing victims of gangs on the gang matrix and without making bame communities the focus of counter-insurgency strategies
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Depends if you or any others you know want to prevent the radicalisation of young people into flirting with terrorism or their recruitment into gangs I suppose.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Yes both perfectly reasonable imo
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