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Keir Starmer's time is up

Monica Galetti seems like a very competent person who has a very clear idea of what she's doing, so I'm not quite following the comparison tbh.
Greg Wallace thinks his opinion counts on professional MasterChef when in reality Marcus and Monica make the decisions. To be Greg Wallace against sir keithly's mg is therefore to be deluded as to your importance in the organisation.
 
I would have loved hearing your mid-1980s views about boycotts and South Africa . Or maybe not.
An easy comparison to make, but again if we were to prioritise strategy (rather than what feels right) we wouldn't just go for that comparison and then bypass further thought about it. We would examine what worked about the South Africa boycotts, what didn't work, what the differences are between the position of South Africa and the position of Israel, economically and politically, the differences between the balance of forces within the two countries, the cultural/media reactions to external actions within those countries and so on.

The point of a political campaign is to win, not to feel good, and I think the pro-Palestine campaign in the UK has no strategy by which it can actually effect any change whatsoever within Israel or Palestine. In the meantime the campaign is waged with such lack of subtlety or political thought that the almost constant stream of 'accidental' anti-semitic speech it produces (and I know that to be real from experience and the experience of friends in the Labour Party) became the stick with which the right wing media could help destroy the party.

Added to that neither I nor many Jewish people in the UK nor in Israel can see why the UK left should be so obsessed with Israel compared to, say, Saudi Arabia, whose violence has been significantly greater over the last few years and which 'we' as the UK are much more implicated in.

When I add up all that on a balance sheet I reach the conclusion that I've stated here before: the left in the UK would do itself a favour by shutting up about Israel except where discussing it within broader foreign policy objectives - and I do not think the Palestinian people would suffer a single disadvantage from their reduced chatter on the topic.
 
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An easy comparison to make, but again if we were to prioritise strategy (rather than what feels right) we wouldn't just go for that comparison and then bypass further thought about it. We would examine what worked about the South Africa boycotts, what didn't work, what the differences are between the position of South Africa and the position of Israel, economically and politically, the differences between the balance of forces within the two countries, the cultural/media reactions to external actions within those countries and so on.

The point of a political campaign is to win, not to feel good, and I think the pro-Palestine campaign in the UK has no strategy by which it can actually effect any change whatsoever within Israel or Palestine. In the meantime the campaign is waged with such lack of subtlety or political thought that the almost constant stream of 'accidental' anti-semitic speech it produces (and I know that to be real from experience and the experience of friends in the Labour Party) became the stick with which the right wing media could help destroy the party.

Added to that neither I nor many Jewish people in the UK nor in Israel can see why the UK left should be so obsessed with Israel compared to, say, Saudi Arabia, whose violence has been significantly greater over the last few years and which 'we' as the UK are much more implicated in.

When I add up all that on a balance sheet I reach the conclusion that I've stated here before: the left in the UK would do itself a favour by shutting up about Israel except where discussing it within broader foreign policy objectives - and I do not think the Palestinian people would suffer a single disadvantage from their reduced chatter on the topic.

This is possibly the most condescending and ignorant post I’ve read on these boards. Well done.
 
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This screwing over of Angela Rayner is the strangest thing. I don't see what it achieves at all. Politics aside Starmer's just a really unpleasant, petty person.

Rayner isn't fawning enough to the tory establishment. She's one of few cabinet positions left who isn't a washed up Blairite or centrist drone, so Starmer can't tolerate her.
 

Only it wasn't about "the gaffer" : puke:, getting closer to the tories all the time) "picking the team and making the decisions", it was about not telling his deputy leader about the reshuffle and so making her look stupid.
 
An easy comparison to make, but again if we were to prioritise strategy (rather than what feels right) we wouldn't just go for that comparison and then bypass further thought about it. We would examine what worked about the South Africa boycotts, what didn't work, what the differences are between the position of South Africa and the position of Israel, economically and politically, the differences between the balance of forces within the two countries, the cultural/media reactions to external actions within those countries and so on.

The point of a political campaign is to win, not to feel good, and I think the pro-Palestine campaign in the UK has no strategy by which it can actually effect any change whatsoever within Israel or Palestine. In the meantime the campaign is waged with such lack of subtlety or political thought that the almost constant stream of 'accidental' anti-semitic speech it produces (and I know that to be real from experience and the experience of friends in the Labour Party) became the stick with which the right wing media could help destroy the party.

Added to that neither I nor many Jewish people in the UK nor in Israel can see why the UK left should be so obsessed with Israel compared to, say, Saudi Arabia, whose violence has been significantly greater over the last few years and which 'we' as the UK are much more implicated in.

When I add up all that on a balance sheet I reach the conclusion that I've stated here before: the left in the UK would do itself a favour by shutting up about Israel except where discussing it within broader foreign policy objectives - and I do not think the Palestinian people would suffer a single disadvantage from their reduced chatter on the topic.
I completely agree. And whilst we're on the subject let's shut up about China, Russia, Myanmar, North Korea, Hong Kong, Philippines, Belarus, Turkey, Syria, Yemen, Brazil. There's fuck all we can do about it. Oh yes, and global warming, nuclear weapons, the NHS. Just shut up, will you.
 
I completely agree. And whilst we're on the subject let's shut up about China, Russia, Myanmar, North Korea, Hong Kong, Philippines, Belarus, Turkey, Syria, Yemen, Brazil.
I barely hear about them in the left wing chattersphere (with the possible exception of Syria), and certainly an order of magnitude less than about Israel, so I think the shutting up is already happening :thumbs:
 
It's not about shutting up about China, Russia, Myanmar, North Korea, Hong Kong, Philippines, Belarus, Turkey, Syria, Yemen, Brazil, etc though is it. There are many on the left who bang on about nothing but Israel while those other places get barely a mention.

This stance doesn't pass the smell test.
 
It's not about shutting up about China, Russia, Myanmar, North Korea, Hong Kong, Philippines, Belarus, Turkey, Syria, Yemen, Brazil, etc though is it. There are many on the left who bang on about nothing but Israel while those other places get barely a mention.

This stance doesn't pass the smell test.
I've never been accused of having a stance before, so thanks for that. People on the left, and people in general, can get obsessive about particular issues. That becomes more likely if the issue in question is a massive injustice which continues year on year, supported by our government, whose perpetrators are supplied with British arms. The UK has historical involvement in the Middle East, as you well know, so it's not surprising that many get passionate about it.

But anyway, I agree with Brainaddict, everyone should just shut up about everything. Otherwise you might get accused of having a smelly stance.
 
Don't take it personally, it's not all about you :D But there are clearly many people on the left who spend a lot of time on Israel/Palestine. There's nothing wrong with this and there's no reason they should shut up. But when Israel/Palestine is the only thing they focus on, to the impediment of all other issues, then it all gets a bit fishy.
 
I've never been accused of having a stance before, so thanks for that. People on the left, and people in general, can get obsessive about particular issues. That becomes more likely if the issue in question is a massive injustice which continues year on year, supported by our government, whose perpetrators are supplied with British arms. The UK has historical involvement in the Middle East, as you well know, so it's not surprising that many get passionate about it.

But anyway, I agree with Brainaddict, everyone should just shut up about everything. Otherwise you might get accused of having a smelly stance.
not to be confused with smelliest aunts
 
This screwing over of Angela Rayner is the strangest thing. I don't see what it achieves at all. Politics aside Starmer's just a really unpleasant, petty person.
I'm not convinced he did screw her over. I suspect comms between them isn't great anyway, and whenever she perceives the slightest slight, she goes nuclear about it via her 'sources close to...'. The fact is that she's not leader of the party, he is, so he gets to do the reshuffles, and she doesn't get to sign them off. However, I think in reality she sees her role more as co-leader rather than deputy leader.

What bugged me most yesterday though was her loudly complaining that his reshuffle had taken the focus of news away from tory failures (and her attempt to get column inches for herself), but she made that worse by immediately briefing about how cross she was, giving more column inches to the reshuffle story, that otherwise could have flown further under the radar. It feels like this is more about her and her personal ambitions than her wanting to pull in the same direction as everyone else to get a Labour government elected.
 
An easy comparison to make, but again if we were to prioritise strategy (rather than what feels right) we wouldn't just go for that comparison and then bypass further thought about it. We would examine what worked about the South Africa boycotts, what didn't work, what the differences are between the position of South Africa and the position of Israel, economically and politically, the differences between the balance of forces within the two countries, the cultural/media reactions to external actions within those countries and so on.

The point of a political campaign is to win, not to feel good, and I think the pro-Palestine campaign in the UK has no strategy by which it can actually effect any change whatsoever within Israel or Palestine. In the meantime the campaign is waged with such lack of subtlety or political thought that the almost constant stream of 'accidental' anti-semitic speech it produces (and I know that to be real from experience and the experience of friends in the Labour Party) became the stick with which the right wing media could help destroy the party...

When I add up all that on a balance sheet I reach the conclusion that I've stated here before: the left in the UK would do itself a favour by shutting up about Israel except where discussing it within broader foreign policy objectives - and I do not think the Palestinian people would suffer a single disadvantage from their reduced chatter on the topic.
Broadly agreed, although as a person of strong crude smashy-smashy tendencies I reckon there is some stuff that can be done in the UK that has a direct material impact on Elbit and the like; but agreed that the majority of people talking about Palestine in the UK are not doing that. And I suppose there is even an argument to be made that the orientation of current Palestine solidarity stuff actually makes it harder to do some of the things that might lead to change in Israeli society, like support to refuseniks and other oppositional tendencies.
The UK has historical involvement in the Middle East, as you well know, so it's not surprising that many get passionate about it.
Map-British-Empire-extent.jpg

If you got passionate about everything that happened in the pink, purple and green bits of this map you'd not have much time to do anything else.
I continue to hold to my view that the next Labour PM is probably not even an MP yet, Indeed I suspect he/she may very well still be at college or even school
The good news is that the next Labour PM is already an MP; the bad news is it's this fucker:
220px-Official_portrait_of_Rt_Hon_Michael_Gove_MP_crop_2.jpg
 
The Palestine solidarity movement in the UK is a very diverse (probably the most diverse) political campaign. Diverse in age, race and tactics. The very fact that brainaddict has come up with such falsehoods says a lot about him and fuck all about the movement.
 
I don't think brainaddict said anything about the demographics of the Palestine solidarity movement? I thought the main claim that b. was making was that the Palestine solidarity movement lacks the ability to make a material impact on the situation in Israel/Palestine, which I would add qualifiers to, but seems unfortunately true for the most part?
 
It was Goblin Gove who told them to stop the HS2 going to Leeds. He has proposed that they sever every road in and out of it also.
 
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