Keir Starmer's time is up

[Dom Traynor]

The Palestine solidarity movement in the UK is a very diverse (probably the most diverse) political campaign. Diverse in age, race and tactics. The very fact that brainaddict has come up with such falsehoods says a lot about him and fuck all about the movement.

Riddled with anti semites from what I recall.

 

[Leighsw2]

...

Added to that neither I nor many Jewish people in the UK nor in Israel can see why the UK left should be so obsessed with Israel compared to, say, Saudi Arabia, whose violence has been significantly greater over the last few years and which 'we' as the UK are much more implicated in.

...

I can't really be arsed with the rest of this, but I had to laugh at this bit. One of the first things that Corbyn did after becoming Leader was to change Labour's position on Saudi Arabia and, for pretty much the first time in living memory, we had a Labour leadership speaking out against the Kingdom (particularly over Yemen and arms sales). As for Palestine, it was pretty much continuity with what had gone before under Miliband.

And that is probably the way it would have stayed except that the Labour Right and their media allies decided to platform front and centre a never ending, performative shit show around 'Labour anti-semitism' - an issue that had literally never existed before Corbyn became Leader (except in the wilder fringes of the Telegraph) and which, strangely, has vanished ever since he stood down (except as an ongoing stick with which to beat him personally and expel his supporters from the party.)

Unsurprisingly, there are some comrades who as a 'fuck you' to all of this nonsense have decided to re-emphasise their pro-Palestinian sentiments and who can blame them? But personally I feel I've heard more in the last few years about 'Israel', 'Palestine' and 'anti-semitism' than I want to hear in the whole of the rest of my life.

(And, before the inevitable responses, yes, there probably were some anti-semites lurking within Labour's half a million membership after 2015, just as there were Communists in Labour's ranks in the 1930s, '40s and '50s and Trotskists in the 1970s and '80s, but nothing that justifies the extraordinary cynical bad faith of the Labour Right in the way they have weaponised this issue against the whole of the Left in Britain.)

 

[PR1Berske]

 

[gosub]

worth pointing out that having complete supremacy of the blue bit was of some significance (prior to rendering its own fleet obsolete by inventing dreadnoughts)

 

[Puddy_Tat]

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[agricola]

I can't really be arsed with the rest of this, but I had to laugh at this bit. One of the first things that Corbyn did after becoming Leader was to change Labour's position on Saudi Arabia and, for pretty much the first time in living memory, we had a Labour leadership speaking out against the Kingdom (particularly over Yemen and arms sales). As for Palestine, it was pretty much continuity with what had gone before under Miliband.

And that is probably the way it would have stayed except that the Labour Right and their media allies decided to platform front and centre a never ending, performative shit show around 'Labour anti-semitism' - an issue that had literally never existed before Corbyn became Leader (except in the wilder fringes of the Telegraph) and which, strangely, has vanished ever since he stood down (except as an ongoing stick with which to beat him personally and expel his supporters from the party.)

Unsurprisingly, there are some comrades who as a 'fuck you' to all of this nonsense have decided to re-emphasise their pro-Palestinian sentiments and who can blame them? But personally I feel I've heard more in the last few years about 'Israel', 'Palestine' and 'anti-semitism' than I want to hear in the whole of the rest of my life.

(And, before the inevitable responses, yes, there probably were some anti-semites lurking within Labour's half a million membership after 2015, just as there were Communists in Labour's ranks in the 1930s, '40s and '50s and Trotskists in the 1970s and '80s, but nothing that justifies the extraordinary cynical bad faith of the Labour Right in the way they have weaponised this issue against the whole of the Left in Britain.)

As an "issue" raised by the Labour right maybe not, but the majority of incidents that were used to go after Corbyn for things he'd said, written or done did date from that time before he was leader. Obviously the fact they did nothing about them then (when they were in a position to) shows what they actually thought about much of it but they did happen.

 

[krtek a houby]

Riddled with anti semites from what I recall.

Any links, citations?

 

[Knotted]

Fwiw I don't quite agree with Brainaddict wrt Palestine. There's some really good reasons why it's such a big issue among the left in this country. Ongoing conflict that never fizzles out where the situation in Gaza is deteriorating and the political mood in Israel is hardening. I also think that diplomatic efforts could take some of the heat off Gaza as Israel doesn't have any profound interest in the strip. Something like a Corbyn led government could make a difference there.

But I'm just here because I'm fascinated by this Starmer-Rayner spat. It's totally trivial but that's exactly what Starmer is. Just look at the state of this.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I can't really be arsed with the rest of this, but I had to laugh at this bit. One of the first things that Corbyn did after becoming Leader was to change Labour's position on Saudi Arabia and, for pretty much the first time in living memory, we had a Labour leadership speaking out against the Kingdom (particularly over Yemen and arms sales). As for Palestine, it was pretty much continuity with what had gone before under Miliband.

And that is probably the way it would have stayed except that the Labour Right and their media allies decided to platform front and centre a never ending, performative shit show around 'Labour anti-semitism' - an issue that had literally never existed before Corbyn became Leader (except in the wilder fringes of the Telegraph) and which, strangely, has vanished ever since he stood down (except as an ongoing stick with which to beat him personally and expel his supporters from the party.)

Unsurprisingly, there are some comrades who as a 'fuck you' to all of this nonsense have decided to re-emphasise their pro-Palestinian sentiments and who can blame them? But personally I feel I've heard more in the last few years about 'Israel', 'Palestine' and 'anti-semitism' than I want to hear in the whole of the rest of my life.

(And, before the inevitable responses, yes, there probably were some anti-semites lurking within Labour's half a million membership after 2015, just as there were Communists in Labour's ranks in the 1930s, '40s and '50s and Trotskists in the 1970s and '80s, but nothing that justifies the extraordinary cynical bad faith of the Labour Right in the way they have weaponised this issue against the whole of the Left in Britain.)

Your point about Commies and Trots in the Labour Party is quite true. But Communists, presumably, would have been under orders from the Communist Party, Trotskyists under orders from the Socialist Labour League, or Militant or whoever. Just where did all these anti-semites come from? Who was behind it all? Or is there a general swirl of antisemitism in society which is so strong that inevitably some anti-semites joined the Labour Party? But if so why just the Labour Party? Why not Plaid Cymru or the SNP? They are nationalist parties after all. They have had accusations made against individual members, but nothing on the scale of the Labour Party. So who is orchestrating all these anti-semites?

 

[Gerry1time]

But I'm just here because I'm fascinated by this Starmer-Rayner spat. It's totally trivial but that's exactly what Starmer is. Just look at the state of this.

Again though, who's the 'source' that's using outrage to turn a meaningless christmas party invite into a bigger story about the party being split? I'm guessing 'sources close to' Rayner. Same as yesterday. Could have been a pretty much non-story until someone went to the press with outrage.

 

[JimW]

Your point about Commies and Trots in the Labour Party is quite true. But Communists, presumably, would have been under orders from the Communist Party, Trotskyists under orders from the Socialist Labour League, or Militant or whoever. Just where did all these anti-semites come from? Who was behind it all? Or is there a general swirl of antisemitism in society which is so strong that inevitably some anti-semites joined the Labour Party? But if so why just the Labour Party? Why not Plaid Cymru or the SNP? They are nationalist parties after all. They have had accusations made against individual members, but nothing on the scale of the Labour Party. So who is orchestrating all these anti-semites?

My impression is the bulk of the problem is people who wouldn't dream of any sort of bigotry in the normal run of things getting invested in a culture of pro-Palestinian campaigning or just commentary that hasn't done enough to examine the lazy use of anti-Semitic tropes and so forth, and seeing as the people challenging them about it have often been horrible right wing shits doubling down on that rather than examining where they're getting it wrong.

 

[Cerv]

But I'm just here because I'm fascinated by this Starmer-Rayner spat. It's totally trivial but that's exactly what Starmer is. Just look at the state of this.

One source told i: “It’s idiotic, pathetic and childish" while throwing all their toys out of the pram

 

[Pickman's model]

One source told i: “It’s idiotic, pathetic and childish" while throwing all their toys out of the pram

How many toys do they have - they never seem to finish throwing them out

 

[elbows]

MID-NORFOLK LABOUR PARTY

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View attachment 298854

Norfolk Labour website tells people not to vote for party

A Norfolk constituency Labour party says it is powerless to amend its website, which has been telling people not to vote Labour for several days.

www.edp24.co.uk

A Norfolk constituency Labour party says it is powerless to amend its website, which has been telling people not to vote Labour for several days.

A disgruntled former party member, who used to manage the site, has edited the homepage of midnorfolklabour.com to criticise the party and its leader Keir Starmer.


Because they do not have the necessary log-ins to edit the site, current members of the local party are not able to remove the message.

 

[Serene]

I watched him in question time this afternoon and noticed he has had a coiffure. Still looks like an Alpaca. I did enjoy the banter though.

 

[hitmouse]

Various threads this could go in, but might as well go here as the current general "why the Labour Party is going down the pan" thread:

Today, the majority of Labour councillors from Sheffield City Council entered a University of Sheffield building for a pre-meeting, and in doing so, walked past striking members of Sheffield UCU.


Along with UCU members from 57 other HE institutions across the UK, today is our first day of strike action in our dispute over rampant precarity, unhealthy workloads, equal pay, and substantial cuts to our pay and pensions.

These are issues that we trust would be of particular importance to the Labour party. We do not condone the use of university buildings during strike action, and when we learned of this meeting, had worked with the Sheffield Students Union to find an alternative location in the Students Union next door, which is treated as neutral ground during industrial action. We are extremely disappointed that any member of the Labour party would choose to cross past striking union members, despite being given an opportunity to support our action by simply relocating their pre-meeting to a nearby building. We understand that at this pre-meeting, the Labour members took a vote and determined to not attend the later, full council meeting.

This decision does not negate their previous choice to do so, but we are pleased they made the correct choice in the end. We appreciate the solidarity of those Labour, Green, and Lib Dem council members who chose to not enter the building.

Genuinely sounds like they actually crossed a picket line to have a discussion about whether to cross picket lines or not.

 

[Pickman's model]

Various threads this could go in, but might as well go here as the current general "why the Labour Party is going down the pan" thread:



Genuinely sounds like they actually crossed a picket line to have a discussion about whether to cross picket lines or not.

I'd have laughed myself silly if a Tory councillor had refused to cross the picket line while the labour creatures walked through

 

[hitmouse]

I'd have laughed myself silly if a Tory councillor had refused to cross the picket line while the labour creatures walked through

Sounds like at least one yellow tory councillor did, is that close enough?

 

[Balbi]

Thoroughly enjoying this Labour consistently ignoring that they've lost Scotland, probably forever.

 

[Serene]

Haste ye back.

 

[Gramsci]

When I add up all that on a balance sheet I reach the conclusion that I've stated here before: the left in the UK would do itself a favour by shutting up about Israel except where discussing it within broader foreign policy objectives - and I do not think the Palestinian people would suffer a single disadvantage from their reduced chatter on the topic.

My partner volunteered for a small Palestinian charity here and got the chance to go with group of teachers to visit Palestinian schools. She found despite the difficult conditions they lived under the Palestinian teachers she met worked hard to keep Palestinian society going.

They were so pleased to have people from UK visit them. Meant they haven't been forgotten and have international support.

So no I don't think ordinary people like my partner who want to show some support for Palestinians should shut up. And I do think the Palestinian people might see "shutting up about Israel" as not advantegous for them.

 

[Pickman's model]

An easy comparison to make, but again if we were to prioritise strategy (rather than what feels right) we wouldn't just go for that comparison and then bypass further thought about it. We would examine what worked about the South Africa boycotts, what didn't work, what the differences are between the position of South Africa and the position of Israel, economically and politically, the differences between the balance of forces within the two countries, the cultural/media reactions to external actions within those countries and so on.

The point of a political campaign is to win, not to feel good, and I think the pro-Palestine campaign in the UK has no strategy by which it can actually effect any change whatsoever within Israel or Palestine. In the meantime the campaign is waged with such lack of subtlety or political thought that the almost constant stream of 'accidental' anti-semitic speech it produces (and I know that to be real from experience and the experience of friends in the Labour Party) became the stick with which the right wing media could help destroy the party.

Added to that neither I nor many Jewish people in the UK nor in Israel can see why the UK left should be so obsessed with Israel compared to, say, Saudi Arabia, whose violence has been significantly greater over the last few years and which 'we' as the UK are much more implicated in.

When I add up all that on a balance sheet I reach the conclusion that I've stated here before: the left in the UK would do itself a favour by shutting up about Israel except where discussing it within broader foreign policy objectives - and I do not think the Palestinian people would suffer a single disadvantage from their reduced chatter on the topic.

Add stuff up on a balance sheet neat and tidy with red debits in one column and black credits in another, how nice and utterly removed from reality. Being as Britain bears a degree of responsibility for the situation in Palestine it's incumbent on people in this country who support a just solution to speak out - especially as the UK is a longstanding ally of and apologist for the Zionist entity. Even more so in the light of the news about the new agreement between the two countries. I wish you'd adopt your own prescription of silence as you seem to have nothing worth the saying on this subject

 

[belboid]

Various threads this could go in, but might as well go here as the current general "why the Labour Party is going down the pan" thread:



Genuinely sounds like they actually crossed a picket line to have a discussion about whether to cross picket lines or not.

yup, that is what they did. It wasn't really a majority tho, only a third or so of them. Several didn't turn up and more stayed outside than went in. The ones who went in were fucking idiots, of course.

All of the libscum and tory did go in, some of the Greens, and passed some bollocks motions.

 

[Brainaddict]

My partner volunteered for a small Palestinian charity here and got the chance to go with group of teachers to visit Palestinian schools. She found despite the difficult conditions they lived under the Palestinian teachers she met worked hard to keep Palestinian society going.

They were so pleased to have people from UK visit them. Meant they haven't been forgotten and have international support.

So no I don't think ordinary people like my partner who want to show some support for Palestinians should shut up. And I do think the Palestinian people might see "shutting up about Israel" as not advantegous for them.

One of my first politicising experiences was travelling to Palestine and meeting a load of ordinary people affected by the conflict. I think solidarity visits can be a good thing, and direct actions against arms manufacturers and so on. But that's not inconsistent with the other things I've said.

People who think we have a responsibility to places 'we' have colonised and fucked up still need to explain why we don't give equal time to Yemen (in which the UK is much more actively involved in an actual shooting war in a former colony) or Kashmir (in which Indian police regularly shoot protesters and terrorise ordinary people in a former colony for whose conflict 'we' are much more directly responsible).

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

One of my first politicising experiences was travelling to Palestine and meeting a load of ordinary people affected by the conflict. I think solidarity visits can be a good thing, and direct actions against arms manufacturers and so on. But that's not inconsistent with the other things I've said.

People who think we have a responsibility to places 'we' have colonised and fucked up still need to explain why we don't give equal time to Yemen (in which the UK is much more actively involved in an actual shooting war in a former colony) or Kashmir (in which Indian police regularly shoot protesters and terrorise ordinary people in a former colony for whose conflict 'we' are much more directly responsible).

People don't need to explain to you why they get involved in political campaigns. Either listen to what they say or don't. As someone who is not in any way directly involved in Palestine solidarity I think it's worth pointing out how both Palestine Solidarity and Anti Apartheid often went hand in hand way back in the last century. Similar discriminations, similar oppression, if looked at in a certain way. Often the same people in the campaigns. Anti Apartheid is no more. Palestine continues. What's hard to understand about that?

 

[Balbi]

Unite Union cutting Labour's funding.

Sharon Graham said they'd do that, and they are. Interesting to see her point at the SNP National Care Service policy as something Unite will campaign for, as it's not on the UK Labour party's agenda any more.

 

[Pickman's model]

People who think we have a responsibility to places 'we' have colonised and fucked up still need to explain why we don't give equal time to Yemen (in which the UK is much more actively involved in an actual shooting war in a former colony) or Kashmir (in which Indian police regularly shoot protesters and terrorise ordinary people in a former colony for whose conflict 'we' are much more directly responsible).

You need to explain why you think these conflicts deserve equal time: not to mention what you mean by equal time

 

[hitmouse]

People don't need to explain to you why they get involved in political campaigns. Either listen to what they say or don't. As someone who is not in any way directly involved in Palestine solidarity I think it's worth pointing out how both Palestine Solidarity and Anti Apartheid often went hand in hand way back in the last century. Similar discriminations, similar oppression, if looked at in a certain way. Often the same people in the campaigns. Anti Apartheid is no more. Palestine continues. What's hard to understand about that?

I mean, I'm not an expert on the Labour left in the 1980s, but I don't think arguments around the anti-apartheid movement played any significant role in destroying the Labour left in the 1980s, whereas arguments around Palestine did play a fairly prominent role in fucking up the Labour left in the 2010s. So that's one fairly important distinction between the two, if looked at in the context of UK politics.

 

[belboid]

Meanwhile in Mid Norfolk…

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[Gramsci]

One of my first politicising experiences was travelling to Palestine and meeting a load of ordinary people affected by the conflict. I think solidarity visits can be a good thing, and direct actions against arms manufacturers and so on. But that's not inconsistent with the other things I've said.

People who think we have a responsibility to places 'we' have colonised and fucked up still need to explain why we don't give equal time to Yemen (in which the UK is much more actively involved in an actual shooting war in a former colony) or Kashmir (in which Indian police regularly shoot protesters and terrorise ordinary people in a former colony for whose conflict 'we' are much more directly responsible).

My partner isn't British or in Labour party.

Palestinians get a lot of international support.

What a lot of these discussions about support for Palestinians/ anti semitism excludes is any agency that Palestinians have. Despite losing their land they have refused to go away. They have over years managed to develop support across the world. This isn't just about the "left" in this country. The Palestinians themselves over the years through the Palestinian diaspora etc have worked hard to get support themselves. It's not just invention of the "left".

Anyway. This thread is about Starmer. He's made clear in recent publicised speech what he thinks as I've posted here.