Just found out a guy who works for me is being a git

[cesare]

Manter I've subsequently seen your later post, yes However my point isn't about how to structure international secondments from a business's point of view (ie optimising profit) but from a local labour relations point of view - and mitigating the effect of expropriation of surplus labour value.

 

[geminisnake]

What does RTU mean??

 

[sleaterkinney]

I don't think people realise how much work HR put into getting expats in the right place,

Nowt as far as i can see, the Indian company supplies a body and that's it.

on the right income etc- the invoicing mechanism makes sense from a finance pov, but where is he paid? in what currency? what are the tax and exchange rate implications? How is he using a UK bank account without UK history etc- all I mean is that as a line manager, you get a warm body fresh off the plane, and an invoice.... you don't see the amount of heavy lifting that goes on in the background to make sure the employee and the company remain compliant and functional

/derail, sorry

The indian company invoices the british one and pays the Indian guy 30% maybe, keeping the rest for itself.

 

[Manter]

Nowt as far as i can see, the Indian company supplies a body and that's it.
The indian company invoices the british one and pays the Indian guy 30% maybe, keeping the rest for itself.

No, because in that case the Indian can't afford to eat while he is here....

 

[Manter]

Manter I've subsequently seen your later post, yes However my point isn't about how to structure international secondments from a business's point of view (ie optimising profit) but from a local labour relations point of view - and mitigating the effect of expropriation of surplus labour value.

The team in the UK are living on the same income while he is in the UK- that's the point. The expat piece isn't all about maximising profit or you would move people from low cost countries, pay them next to nothing and probably put them up in dormitories. As in fact is common in china....

 

[equationgirl]

tbh we have a lot of 3rd party Indians working with us and I've never noticed any gender issues - but then again I am a bloke.

If he's disregarding clients instructions it could be that he's a bit of a cowboy anyway.

^^^This. Never disregard client instructions.

Which is why I'm very annoyed at a consultant at the moment. They were supposed to deliver a final report the first week of Jan but didn't. I told them last week that as they had taken a three week extension to the deadline with asking or even informing us I wanted the final report by Friday last week. I came in on Monday to find an incomplete document marked draft in my inbox. Well annoyed

 

[sleaterkinney]

No, because in that case the Indian can't afford to eat while he is here....

It was an exaggeration but even so this guy is getting sent out to client sites so he is probably bringing in a decent whack....

 

[sleaterkinney]

The team in the UK are living on the same income while he is in the UK- that's the point. The expat piece isn't all about maximising profit or you would move people from low cost countries, pay them next to nothing and probably put them up in dormitories. As in fact is common in china....

The expat piece is 100% about maximising profit.

 

[Pickman's model]

What does RTU mean??

return to unit

 

[cesare]

The team in the UK are living on the same income while he is in the UK- that's the point. The expat piece isn't all about maximising profit or you would move people from low cost countries, pay them next to nothing and probably put them up in dormitories. As in fact is common in china....

I said optimising profit, not maximising it. However it's structured, his overall rem shouldn't be less in the UK than for comparable local labour. Note I also said that the impact on the local labour force depends on the type of job and sector.

 

[Manter]

I said optimising profit, not maximising it. However it's structured, his overall rem shouldn't be less in the UK than for comparable local labour. Note I also said that the impact on the local labour force depends on the type of job and sector.

I've never known of a situation where an expat is paid less than local staff- but also never come across a situation where its remuneration, rather than a series of allowances.

 

[dylanredefined]

He is Mr Stupid.
If you work in a different country you learn about the culture you have to work in it.

 

[Manter]

The expat piece is 100% about maximising profit.

no, its about lots of things including staff development, skills transfer, cost control, business development, etc etc

 

[cesare]

I've never known of a situation where an expat is paid less than local staff- but also never come across a situation where its remuneration, rather than a series of allowances.

There have been some notable incidents of industrial unrest caused by businesses bringing cheaper labour from overseas to carry out contracts.

 

[Manter]

There have been some notable incidents of industrial unrest caused by businesses bringing cheaper labour from overseas to carry out contracts.

that isn't expats though, is it- that's hiring spanish builders then bringing them over (if I remember one case correctly)- its back to my chinese example. a skilled IT specialist that has been transferred from an overseas arm of the firm is on an existing contract and will be repatriated at the end of the assignment- different kettle of fish to a foreigner who is employed on local terms, potentially cheaply because they just got off the boat and don't know/care to argue

 

[sleaterkinney]

no, its about lots of things including staff development, skills transfer, cost control, business development, etc etc

Outsourcing is about getting people with the same skills cheaper. In Pingu's case it doesn't matter that they pay the same rate as a UK employee as it's more profit for the Indian subsidiary.

 

[cesare]

that isn't expats though, is it- that's hiring spanish builders then bringing them over (if I remember one case correctly)- its back to my chinese example. a skilled IT specialist that has been transferred from an overseas arm of the firm is on an existing contract and will be repatriated at the end of the assignment- different kettle of fish to a foreigner who is employed on local terms, potentially cheaply because they just got off the boat and don't know/care to argue

At what point does overseas labour become "expat"?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

FridgeMagnet - I agree, but I have to hear his side first. My instinct is to just RTU him (if its true) but its a bit more complicated that that from an intercompany POV. if I just RTU him it will get messy unless I can say we have explored other options as well.

Oh sure, it doesn't necessarily mean "clear your desk" but if those aspects are true that's serious shit. I'd make sure he was moved off the project (because the client will hate him) and give - or insist that the other company give - a really serious "we are not fucking about here, you sort your attitude out mate and this is the last warning you'll get" message.

If he's employed by somebody else I would also look carefully at how they respond to this, and raise it higher up if they look like they're dismissing it, because it could be a corporate culture issue.

 

[weltweit]

Anyhow, the problem with Mr Stupid is that he did not do what was requested or instructed by a senior person and made sexist comments to colleagues.

 

[Manter]

At what point does overseas labour become "expat"?

Existing contract and continuity of service. So if I work for (e.g.) Unilever in the US and they move me to Europe, I am an expat. If I happen to be american and get a job for Unilever in the UK, I am not an expat- I am either a regular employee, or, in some situations, you may go for 'local terms' (you hire on UK T&Cs but with certain provisions made for the tax/benefit status of the individual). If you hire someone on an expat contract you hire them in the home country even if they never work a day there, and they remain on home T&Cs. Host country is only ever an addendum or supplemental to the contract of employment, which remains with home country- the intention is to return someone home when they are done in the host country. that may never happen due to consecutive assignments (the tax complication on those is enough to make you cry) or an individual localising ie becoming to all intents and purposes a local (UK in the example above) employee.

 

[Manter]

Outsourcing is about getting people with the same skills cheaper. In Pingu's case it doesn't matter that they pay the same rate as a UK employee as it's more profit for the Indian subsidiary.

outsourcing is something different- outsourcing is getting the activity done by a third party.
Outsouring- paying a third party to do an activity
Offshoring- is getting it done by a party in a different location (which may be nearshore, as if it isn't complicated enough- ie in a country nearby. Offshoring to Poland from the UK is usually considered nearshore).
Offshoring can be outsourced, ie by a third party, or it can be captive, ie part of the main company.
Outsourcing- getting stuff done by a third party, is technically just to use their skill set- it may or may not reduce costs (often doesn't, but that is a different story)- most outsourcings that do go off shore have a hub and spoke solution where there is local ie onshore staff as well as a service centre or whatever.

What Pingu is talking about is an international assignment, referred to as an expatriate assignment, as the individual has been expatriated from the place where his contract of employment is held

 

[cesare]

Existing contract and continuity of service. So if I work for (e.g.) Unilever in the US and they move me to Europe, I am an expat. If I happen to be american and get a job for Unilever in the UK, I am not an expat- I am either a regular employee, or, in some situations, you may go for 'local terms' (you hire on UK T&Cs but with certain provisions made for the tax/benefit status of the individual). If you hire someone on an expat contract you hire them in the home country even if they never work a day there, and they remain on home T&Cs. Host country is only ever an addendum or supplemental to the contract of employment, which remains with home country- the intention is to return someone home when they are done in the host country. that may never happen due to consecutive assignments (the tax complication on those is enough to make you cry) or an individual localising ie becoming to all intents and purposes a local (UK in the example above) employee.

Moving labour around between countries doesn't happen unless there's profit in doing so, right?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Moving labour around between countries doesn't happen unless there's profit in doing so, right?

Well, unless there's a perceived potential profit or benefit. I've seen some very unprofitable movements take place.

 

[Manter]

Moving labour around between countries doesn't happen unless there's profit in doing so, right?

Depends what you mean. There needs to be a reason- it is often longer term profit, ie developing a business, or a individual, making a multi-national relationship work better etc. Expats are very expensive- they cost on average 3x local workers, by the time you've sorted tax, relocation, allowances, family support, etc etc, which is why localisation is increasingly popular. But companies still move people internationally in order to run international businesses.

So, for example, I've been expated- there was no short term profit in it except that I delivered something that people locally couldn't have delivered. But I cost a fortune doing it. One of my friends is married to an expat American- he is expatted to learn about European markets before they take him home and he moves into a senior position- the organisation needs him to understand the global business.

You don't run an expat process because its cheap and leads to short term profit that is ascribed to the bottom line, but there needs to be some business upside in it, or there is no point in doing it

 

[sleaterkinney]

Manter, I'm not sure why you're giving me all those definitions and you haven't argued against the reason why I said Pingu's company were doing what they are doing. Follow the money.

 

[cesare]

Well, unless there's a perceived potential profit or benefit. I've seen some very unprofitable movements take place.

Yes, there will always be examples of it being done badly But if it was generally an overall cost to global businesses, it wouldn't happen.

 

[Manter]

Manter, I'm not sure why you're giving me all those definitions and you haven't argued against the reason why I said Pingu's company were doing what they are doing. Follow the money.

you were using the wrong terms so I assumed you weren't clear on the meaning of them. My guess would be @Pingu's firm operate a multishore model where solutions are delivered partly locally and partly offshore, and the indian involved usually works on the offshore site. Its my guess he has been brought over here to learn how the UK organisation works, see client activity up close, share information on the offshore part of the business and so allow/help the organisation to deliver solutions more effectively in the future.

None of that is outsourcing. Unless the indian individual is from an outsourcing provider, which Pingu hasn't mentioned, in which case he is a secondment and an expat assignment

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Yes, there will always be examples of it being done badly But if it was generally an overall cost to global businesses, it wouldn't happen.

There's also the issue of breaking up local labour practices and organisation - which exist even in IT. Even if there's actually an excess cost that results from that, it would still be a motivation in a lot of cases. (That's why I added "benefit" there....)

 

[Manter]

Yes, there will always be examples of it being done badly But if it was generally an overall cost to global businesses, it wouldn't happen.

it is a cost- that is usually justified as an investment

 

[cesare]

There's also the issue of breaking up local labour practices and organisation - which exist even in IT. Even if there's actually an excess cost that results from that, it would still be a motivation in a lot of cases. (That's why I added "benefit" there....)

Exactly.