Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[littlebabyjesus]

A survey of the general population isn't going to capture this, whatever the question. We're talking about a small number of people really as a percentage of everyone when considering the activist Labour left, and a subset of that number who hold anti-Semitic views.

 

[killer b]

Ok. Let's say 'fuck off' to everyone who disagrees with you. But why should we take any more notice of you than Michael Rosen? And all those Jewish members of Jewish Voice for Labour who you don't like?

I haven't told anyone I disagree with to fuck off here. You don't have to take any notice of me tbh, but I'd prefer if you based your view on the many carefully considered posts I've made on this topic rather than the single swearword in that one. Up to you though.

 

[Treacle Toes]

JVL are so unheard that their (tiny) organisation keeps on turning up on newsnight

I don't watch newsnight...and frankly this trite response isn't something we can build a meaningful conversation from. EVERYONE is claiming to be silenced and they're all getting interviews and use SM and here we are talking about them

I asked you to share who you think people should be listening to. You don't want to do that. So fine. I'll keep my questions to myself.

 

[Shechemite]

Okey doke

 

[two sheds]

The 'loyal' thing is an appeal to British nationalism, it's a clumsy fumbling for the dual loyalty thing, it does not address 'zionism' at all, so is the wrong question if you want to deepen understanding of what we're talking about. Do you see that much?

Yes true, but still shows that Labour voters were less antisemitic in that respect, and that proportion dropped under Corbyn.

I'm not sure how you'd phrase a question on zionism to show antisemitism rather than antizionism though.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes true, but still shows that Labour voters were less antisemitic in that respect, and that proportion dropped under Corbyn.

I'm not sure how you'd phrase a question on zionism to show antisemitism rather than antizionism though.

I think the question in that survey on the Holocaust is closest in that regard.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Okey doke

Spoiler: Okay Ned

 

[ska invita]

I like Michael Rosen but he's got some serious blinkers on over this stuff.

Which are the cases that he's seriously blinkered about?
Perhaps Im seriously blinkered too - what have I missed?

 

[two sheds]

I think the question in that survey on the Holocaust is closest in that regard.

Which has (to me) a surprisingly high Labour response: 15% and 8% - I'd have seen that as more a far right concern, linked to holocaust denial.

 

[rummo]

Labour and far left antisemitism is generally tied to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians?

When that leeches over into criticism of the Jews then it's clearly antisemitic. But criticism of Israel is also treated by some as antisemitic on its own. That also confuses the matter.

Plus "Connection with Israel makes them less loyal" What other questions would have been useful?

I struggle with the whole question of loyalty to any state, so frankly couldn't give a toss if a Jewish person has dual loyalty, ditto an Irish person or anyone with dual nationality, a timeshare in Toremolinos or whatever.

 

[two sheds]

I struggle with the whole question of loyalty to any state, so frankly couldn't give a toss if a Jewish person has dual loyalty, ditto an Irish person or anyone with dual nationality, a timeshare in Toremolinos or whatever.

Yes tend to agree - that wouldn't be shown up in that survey as antisemitic though: wouldn't make them "less loyal".

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Which has (to me) a surprisingly high Labour response: 15% and 8% - I'd have seen that as more a far right concern, linked to holocaust denial.

you can also interpret it as using the Holocaust for some form of special pleading, and that can be linked to special pleading on behalf of Israel because of the Holocaust. Doesn't have to involve denial that the Holocaust happened.

 

[killer b]

Which are the cases that he's seriously blinkered about?
Perhaps Im seriously blinkered too - what have I missed?

Sorry, I don't have any specific examples, but I've read a lot of his posts about Labour antisemitism over the last few years and often wince. He hasn't posted much about it recently though and I'm not going to go back through his facebook posts to check.

 

[two sheds]

Sorry, I don't have any specific examples, but I've read a lot of his posts about Labour antisemitism over the last few years and often wince. He hasn't posted much about it recently though and I'm not going to go back through his facebook posts to check.

Chomsky too?

“The way charges of anti-Semitism are being used in Britain to undermine the Corbyn-led Labour Party is not only a disgrace, but also –to put it simply – an insult to the memory of the victims of the Holocaust,”

Chomsky told independent journalist Matt Kennard in an e-mailed statement.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sorry, I don't have any specific examples, but I've read a lot of his posts about Labour antisemitism over the last few years and often wince. He hasn't posted much about it recently though and I'm not going to go back through his facebook posts to check.

When you make serious allegations like this it would be nice if you could be bothered to substantiate them

 

[Treacle Toes]

Sorry, I don't have any specific examples, but I've read a lot of his posts about Labour antisemitism over the last few years and often wince. He hasn't posted much about it recently though and I'm not going to go back through his facebook posts to check.

What made you wince?

 

[bimble]

you can also interpret it as using the Holocaust for some form of special pleading, and that can be linked to special pleading on behalf of Israel because of the Holocaust. Doesn't have to involve denial that the Holocaust happened.

What 'special pleading' do you think is going on 'on behalf of israel because of the holocaust' ?? Also, what? Please expand.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Sorry, I don't have any specific examples, but I've read a lot of his posts about Labour antisemitism over the last few years and often wince. He hasn't posted much about it recently though and I'm not going to go back through his facebook posts to check.

Can't we just have one specific example? Just one?

 

[brogdale]

Funny old thing, the LP...it would seem that someone regarded as too antisemitic to be part of the PLP, is OK to be a member.

 

[Pickman's model]

Can't we just have one specific example? Just one?

You'd have thought one example would stay in kb's mind of all the posts he's read

 

[rummo]

Sorry, I don't have any specific examples, but I've read a lot of his posts about Labour antisemitism over the last few years and often wince. He hasn't posted much about it recently though and I'm not going to go back through his facebook posts to check.

So you often winced, but can't recall or find any detail. Yeah.

And he hasn't been so active recently, possibly as a result of having been extremely ill and still in recovery.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What 'special pleading' do you think is going on 'on behalf of israel because of the holocaust' ?? Also, what? Please expand.

I don't. I was saying that that question is the one that, imo, would most closely capture left Labour anti-Semitism.

 

[brogdale]

We aren't ever going to campaign for or vote for the tories though. It's not that it's qualitatively better or worse, it's just a totally different context.

Well obviously antisemitism examined in different political parties will be different in context, but surely words or deeds that contravene the IHMC's working definition of antisemitism (& guidelines/examples) are antisemitism?
Whether or not "we" might vote or campaign for any political party shouldn't really influence whether or not we identify and condemn antisemitism, should it?

 

[killer b]

well, just for you guys I'm scrolling back through months and months of Michael Rosen's facebook posts. Thanks for that.

 

[brogdale]

I expect a fairly large segment of english people to be the boring automatic unthinking kind of general racists with a side order of antisemitism that just comes with it, like a garnish. Thats what i mean by standard, standard issue basic no frills bigotry, like the daily mail, or the completely ordinary woman i met recently who called jews 'a sharp elbowed people', that. If you think the problem 'on the left' is that same thing just sprinkled at random through the population, then idk really how to assist.

So, for you, it doesn't matter whether or not some specific words or action are antisemitic, (according to the IHMC's definition), it's those emanating from 'the left' that are qualitatively worse in some way? Have I read that right?

 

[killer b]

And he hasn't been so active recently, possibly as a result of having been extremely ill and still in recovery.

he's been very active recently, he just hasn't been posting about Labour antisemitism.

 

[bimble]

So, for you, it doesn't matter whether or not some specific words or action are antisemitic, (according to the IHMC's definition), it's those emanating from 'the left' that are qualitatively worse in some way? Have I read that right?

It's when friends or expected friends do it that i get sad and scared, not when the daily mail or tory MPs do. if thats 'emanating from the left = qualitatively worse in some way" then yes, that, you've read it right.

 

[brogdale]

It's when friends or expected friends do it that i get sad and scared, not when the daily mail or tory MPs do. if thats 'emanating from the left = qualitatively worse in some way" then yes, that, you've read it right.

OK, I get how a Jewish socialist might well experience a particular pain of betrayal if fellow socialists were to behave in an antisemitic way, but when you said,

standard issue basic no frills bigotry, like the daily mail, or the completely ordinary woman i met recently who called jews 'a sharp elbowed people', that. If you think the problem 'on the left' is that same thing just sprinkled at random through the population, then idk really how to assist.

I got the impression that your view of 'left' antisemitism didn't just derive from a such a personal perspective but was based on the antisemitism emanating from the left being objectively different in form than 'the standard' form that you exemplified.

 

[rummo]

he's been very active recently, he just hasn't been posting about Labour antisemitism.

My impression is that his twitter feed is nowhere near as busy as it was, and now is mostly retweets, which is entirely understandable in the circumstances.

I could never understand how he was able to do everything he used to do.

Made Stakhanov look like Bertie Woster.

 

[killer b]

He still writes a lot on facebook. I'm only into august.