Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[littlebabyjesus]

I expect a fairly large segment of english people to be the boring automatic unthinking kind of general racists with a side order of antisemitism that just comes with it, like a garnish. Thats what i mean by standard, standard issue basic no frills bigotry, like the daily mail, or the completely ordinary woman i met recently who called jews 'a sharp elbowed people', that. If you think the problem 'on the left' is that same thing just sprinkled at random through the population, then idk really how to assist.

This is a fair point. And it's a fair criticism of Corbyn to say that he doesn't take it point fully on board. He's ended up being defensive about this subject, sadly. Understandably, but sadly.

 

[bimble]

Yep, look at the tories they're worse is just a shit argument, i don't even know what the point is of saying it.
i just saw this, a non-huge list but maybe they published early.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's not a tiny list tbf. One sixth of the parliamentary party are prepared to openly disagree with the leader and criticise him severely.

But it's the Socialist Campaign Group. All of them. It's the people Starmer is purposely setting himself against.

 

[killer b]

that's just the members of the Socialist Campaign Group I think - doubt any non-SCG MP would sign up for a letter under their heading would they?

 

[bimble]

Yep i see, maybe they didn't ask anyone outside the org to sign it.
What are the actual consequences of him not being given a whip? (i don't get the whole whip thing)

 

[killer b]

Very little practically at this point, but when it comes to selection time ahead of the next General Election if the whip isn't restored then someone else will stand for the Labour Party in Islington North.

 

[bimble]

Almost all of the replies to that socialist campaign group statement on the twitter are people saying come on all you lot resign the whip in protest, do something. That would be interesting.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Very little practically at this point, but when it comes to selection time ahead of the next General Election if the whip isn't restored then someone else will stand for the Labour Party in Islington North.

And lose.

Not a good look.

 

[killer b]

Almost all of the replies to that socialist campaign group statement on the twitter are people saying come on all you lot resign the whip in protest do something.

all dickheads with no idea tbh

 

[killer b]

Don't read the comments on news stories, don't read the replies to politicians on twitter is a reasonable rule of thumb

 

[two sheds]

Yep, look at the tories they're worse is just a shit argument, i don't even know what the point is of saying it.

Is it though? Surely it’s a fair statement to gain some perspective. If levels of antisemitism in the Labour party are lower than in the Tory party and lower than in society at large, then why particularly focus on the Labour party? What is qualitatively different, exactly?

As I say my understanding is that it has stemmed from protesting against Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians. What is the antisemitism that has spilled out of that, and why is it more dangerous to Jewish people than the more prevalent antisemitism in society?

It’s fair for someone within Labour to say they should be less tolerant of antisemitism in the party, that’s correct. But why should someone outside the Labour party be less tolerant of antisemitism than in the tory party or in society more generally? Why pick on the Labour party when they’re not even in power, nor likely to be, rather than the tories who actually have the power to put their antisemitism into practice?

There’s also the point that antisemitism in the Labour party under Corbyn dropped. So why focus on Corbyn aside from his own particular failings, rather than focusing on the people who were responsible for rooting it out before Corbyn took responsibility from them and gave it to Jenny Formby?

I'm interested, and I'll happily change my opinion if convinced.

 

[bimble]

two sheds can you remember where you saw the thing you're talking about where you say it declined when he became leader ? i'd be interested in a link to that.
Fwiw I don't think JC is an antisemite just a bit of a silly old man, too steeped in his little righteous world to be able to learn anything.
I can only speak for myself about the rest of it but the answer to this bit

why should someone outside the Labour party be less tolerant of antisemitism than in the tory party or in society more generally? Why pick on the Labour party when they’re not even in power, nor likely to be, rather than the tories who actually have the power to put their antisemitism into practice?

is because i don't expect anything else at all from the tories (or from that boring racist woman down in the village) but i do want better from people - inside & outside the labour party - who are supposed to be interested in making the world a bit less shit than it is.

 

[rummo]

two sheds can you remember where you saw the thing you're talking about where you say it declined when he became leader ? i'd be interested in a link to that.
Fwiw I don't think JC is an antisemite just a bit of a silly old man, too steeped in his little righteous world to be able to learn anything.
I can only speak for myself about the rest of it but the answer to this bit is because i don't expect anything else at all from the tories (or from that boring racist woman down in the village) but i do want better from people - inside & outside the labour party - who are supposed to be interested in making the world a bit less shit than it is.

'If people combatting antisemitism in the Labour Party are not combatting antisemitism in the Tory Party then they're not combatting antisemitism. They're combatting the Labour Party.'

Michael Rosen

 

[two sheds]

two sheds can you remember where you saw the thing you're talking about where you say it declined when he became leader ? i'd be interested in a link to that.
Fwiw I don't think JC is an antisemite just a bit of a silly old man, too steeped in his little righteous world to be able to learn anything.
I can only speak for myself about the rest of it but the answer to this bit is because i don't expect anything else at all from the tories (or from that boring racist woman down in the village) but i do want better from people - inside & outside the labour party - who are supposed to be interested in making the world a bit less shit than it is.

Fig. 5. Adapted from CAA/YouGov (2015) and CAA (2017). Survey questions were identical in 2016 and 2017; the 2015 survey used slightly different wording.

And according to metrics[23] used by the Campaign Against Antisemitism (CAA)—a group which has been highly critical of Labour—the prevalence of anti-Jewish prejudices appears to have declined across the political spectrum during Corbyn’s time as leader.

Smoke Without Fire: The Myth of a ‘Labour Antisemitism Crisis’

Note: This article by Jamie Stern-Weiner and Alan Maddison features in an eBook on the ‘Labour antisemitism’ controversy edited by…

www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk

 

[Shechemite]

For all this ‘wrong sort of Jew’ rhetoric it’s notable what a select group of Jews get quoted by posters here

 

[redsquirrel]

Fig. 5. Adapted from CAA/YouGov (2015) and CAA (2017). Survey questions were identical in 2016 and 2017; the 2015 survey used slightly different wording

Smoke Without Fire: The Myth of a ‘Labour Antisemitism Crisis’

Note: This article by Jamie Stern-Weiner and Alan Maddison features in an eBook on the ‘Labour antisemitism’ controversy edited by…

www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk

That data is for party voters not party members.

 

[killer b]

'If people combatting antisemitism in the Labour Party are not combatting antisemitism in the Tory Party then they're not combatting antisemitism. They're combatting the Labour Party.'

Michael Rosen

we heard you first time

 

[two sheds]

For all this ‘wrong sort of Jew’ rhetoric it’s notable what a select group of Jews get quoted by posters here

I quoted that "select group of Jews" because they referred to the YouGov survey that I saw originally. I couldn't find the survey itself.

 

[two sheds]

That data is for party voters not party members.

That's true, fair play. So antisemitism among Labour voters declined while Corbyn was in power.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

For all this ‘wrong sort of Jew’ rhetoric it’s notable what a select group of Jews get quoted by posters here

Authors, barristers, labour party members?

Believe it or not there are not many Margaret Hodge fans on here.

 

[bimble]

For all this ‘wrong sort of Jew’ rhetoric it’s notable what a select group of Jews get quoted by posters here

It's not just here, as i'm sure you know, the 'As A Jew i stand with jeremy and against the murder of palestinian children' posts are always massively popular.

 

[killer b]

Fuck Margaret Hodge, but fuck Jewish Voice for Labour too. And I like Michael Rosen but he's got some serious blinkers on over this stuff.

 

[two sheds]

fuck Jewish Voice for Labour too.

Why? The graph shape is pretty much as I remember it from the YouGov survey.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Fuck Margaret Hodge, but fuck Jewish Voice for Labour too. And I like Michael Rosen but he's got some serious blinkers on over this stuff.

Ok. Let's say 'fuck off' to everyone who disagrees with you. But why should we take any more notice of you than Michael Rosen? And all those Jewish members of Jewish Voice for Labour who you don't like?

 

[redsquirrel]

That's true, fair play. So antisemitism among Labour voters declined while Corbyn was in power.

Well a set of socially conservative anti-Semitic views declined. None of those views questioned are really around the fault lines of left-wing antisemitism (though "too much power in the media" is heading in that direction).

 

[Treacle Toes]

For all this ‘wrong sort of Jew’ rhetoric it’s notable what a select group of Jews get quoted by posters here

Honestly this interests me.

What/which Jewish people do you quote or agree with?

I think most that read this thread are being careful not to fall foul of offending Jewish Urbanites, and obviously know, don't suggest/imagine that 'all Jewish people' think or feel the same.

We are also witnessing these conversations going on amongst Jewish people in this country and internationally.

At the same time, you talk about stuff being 'notable' and you aren't giving any examples of what people are doing wrong or which Jewish people are being quoted that you yourself view as a 'select few'.

It's at the point where you need to shit or get off the pot. Tell people who and what they are doing wrong in your opinion.

The 'wrong kind of Jew' argument was obviously borne from the fact that many Jewish people don't feel their voices/opinions are being counted. they've been told they aren't Jewish enough. loyal enough, shouldn't disagree or criticise X, Y Z. Are they allowed to talk about that? Doesn't that present a problem/problems if they feel they're aren't 'allowed' to be the diverse people they are?

It's similar to the 'not black enough' position. The idea of a monolith, only one way to be and think...and if you don't think, believe, BE a certain way you are less than or irrelevant.

 

[two sheds]

Well a set of socially conservative anti-Semitic views declined. None of those views questioned are really around the fault lines of left-wing antisemitism (though "too much power in the media" is heading in that direction).

Plus "Connection with Israel makes them less loyal" What other questions would have been useful?

 

[Shechemite]

Honestly this interests me.

What/which Jewish people do you quote or agree with?

I think most that read this thread are being careful not to fall foul of offending Jewish Urbanites, and obviously know, don't suggest/imagine that 'all Jewish people' think or feel the same.

We are also witnessing these conversations going on amongst Jewish people in this country and internationally.

At the same time, you talk about stuff being 'notable' and you aren't giving any examples of what people are doing wrong or which Jewish people are being quoted that you yourself view as a 'select few'.

It's at the point where you need to shit or get off the pot. Tell people who and what they are doing wrong in your opinion.

The 'wrong kind of Jew' argument was obviously borne from the fact that many Jewish people don't feel their voices/opinions are being counted.

It's similar to the 'not black enough' position. The idea of a monolith, only one way to be and think...and if you don't think, believe, BE a certain way you are less than or irrelevant.

JVL are so unheard that their (tiny) organisation keeps on turning up on newsnight

 

[bimble]

Plus "Connection with Israel makes them less loyal" What other questions would have been useful?

The 'loyal' thing is an appeal to British nationalism, it's a clumsy fumbling for the dual loyalty thing, it does not address 'zionism' at all, so is the wrong question if you want to deepen understanding of what we're talking about. Do you see that much?

I keep looking at that graph you posted and feeling a bit depressed.

 

[redsquirrel]

Plus "Connection with Israel makes them less loyal" What other questions would have been useful?

Yes to some extent that one goes in a similar direction. Depends what you are trying to find out. But the decline of a certain set of anti-semitic views does not mean that other, different, anti-semitic views have become less/more prevalent.