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Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

After 5 years and the total destruction of his political programme, you'd have thought if he was a man given to reflection and flexibility he might have stopped the 'as there is throughout society..' equivocation on antisemitism by now.

Yeh whatever he does he's going to be criticized for it though. If he'd just said nothing after the EHRC report we'd be on "silly weak old man, if he believed that he'd fought antisemitism in the party then why not stand up for himself and say so? No spine".
 
Sure he'd be criticised whatever his response was. But his response wasn't ever going to be anything but what it was, because he's not able to be reflective or flexible on this, as evidenced by everything he's done or said on the topic for 5 years.
 
I'm starting to find the 'defend Corbyn at all costs' brigade depressing but also fascinating. It seems to be leftism as tribalism, and defending your tribe at all costs, with a bit of Richard Seymour macho posturing (We must not look weak!) thrown in. I suppose they would say it's about solidarity, but when someone has been in a leadership position I don't think solidarity is the only way you need to relate to them. You also need to be strategic, and I cannot see any strategically good reason for Corbyn and his stance on anti-semitism to be the hill that you die on. Finding it all quite weird.
 
I'm starting to find the 'defend Corbyn at all costs' brigade depressing but also fascinating. It seems to be leftism as tribalism, and defending your tribe at all costs, with a bit of Richard Seymour macho posturing (We must not look weak!) thrown in. I suppose they would say it's about solidarity, but when someone has been in a leadership position I don't think solidarity is the only way you need to relate to them. You also need to be strategic, and I cannot see any strategically good reason for Corbyn and his stance on anti-semitism to be the hill that you die on. Finding it all quite weird.
Usually find Seymour's analysis useful and he's written some very good stuff on left antisemitism, but his latest blog on this is terrible.
 
I'm starting to find the 'defend Corbyn at all costs' brigade depressing but also fascinating. It seems to be leftism as tribalism, and defending your tribe at all costs, with a bit of Richard Seymour macho posturing (We must not look weak!) thrown in. I suppose they would say it's about solidarity, but when someone has been in a leadership position I don't think solidarity is the only way you need to relate to them. You also need to be strategic, and I cannot see any strategically good reason for Corbyn and his stance on anti-semitism to be the hill that you die on. Finding it all quite weird.

About as weird as attack him at all costs nomatter what he's done. Hardly a hill to die on, he's not leader of the party any more, not even got the whip. If people think he's been unfairly attacked then they're going to defend him.
 
Usually find Seymour's analysis useful and he's written some very good stuff on left antisemitism, but his latest blog on this is terrible.
On twitter at least he has a bit of an obsession with what looks 'strong' or looks 'weak', without even reflecting on who is doing the looking and which audiences matter.

As an aside, it is to Momentum's credit that one of my friends who has the 'defend Corbyn at all costs' attitude is annoyed at most Momentum people (led by TWT crowd I believe) just wanting to move on and get on with building a left wing political culture.
 
On twitter at least he has a bit of an obsession with what looks 'strong' or looks 'weak', without even reflecting on who is doing the looking and which audiences matter.

As an aside, it is to Momentum's credit that one of my friends who has the 'defend Corbyn at all costs' attitude is annoyed at most Momentum people (led by TWT crowd I believe) just wanting to move on and get on with building a left wing political culture.
'Move on' has been a Brexit fraud slogan so turn it in.
 
The inability to reflect or learn, on this subject (which is the criticism of JC that's so disappointed badgers) is just a normal human failing like how we are all inclined to think the best of ourselves and our friends and to gloss over uncomfortable bits where we might have shortcomings.
A bit like how there are so many opinions here but not a soul has any idea as to what group of people were being described as manipulative, dishonest and thinking they deserve special treatment, in that post that everyone ignored. weird.
 
The inability to reflect or learn, on this subject (which is the criticism of JC that's so disappointed badgers) is just a normal human failing like how we are all inclined to think the best of ourselves and our friends and to gloss over uncomfortable bits where we might have shortcomings.
A bit like how there are so many opinions here but not a soul has any idea as to what group of people were being described as manipulative, dishonest and thinking they're special, in that post that everyone ignored. weird.
TLDR silly old man
 
What is the better option/opposition then?

Hate to hear that a decent socialist depresses you. Back to Blair or cheer on Starmer? Maybe vote Tory next time eh?
What are the long term goals of a left wing movement in this country? Whatever they are, I don't think Corbyn has much to do with them any more. He was a pin that held together a certain coalition of people for a time. He's not important in himself. The fact that he's being attacked by the Labour right is part of a significant trend its true, but you've got to pick your battles. Making the success of the Labour left dependent on defending Corbyn - who has shown repeatedly that he cannot reflect on anti-semitism very well, or position himself to look good even when his lifelong mission is at stake - is setting yourself up to fail. Pick some battles you can win.
 
What are the long term goals of a left wing movement in this country? Whatever they are, I don't think Corbyn has much to do with them any more. He was a pin that held together a certain coalition of people for a time. He's not important in himself. The fact that he's being attacked by the Labour right is part of a significant trend its true, but you've got to pick your battles. Making the success of the Labour left dependent on defending Corbyn - who has shown repeatedly that he cannot reflect on anti-semitism very well, or position himself to look good even when his lifelong mission is at stake - is setting yourself up to fail. Pick some battles you can win.

So when tories attack the labour party and by extension labour voters as antisemitic what should people do? I'd say yes there was some antisemitism but it was exaggerated and exploted.

Let's extend it a bit. It was the left of the party that was accused of antisemitism, so that's clearly going to be revolutionary socialists. If right wingers start attacking revolutionary socialists (or anarchists or whatever political hue you ascribe to) as antisemitic what would you do? Agree and say lets move on?

Or try to dissuade them? Strange antisemitic hill to die on.
 
Mate, I've spent substantial portions of the last few years campaigning for a Corbyn government. I've knocked on hundreds of doors, I've attended meeting, rallies and conferences, I've raised thousands of pounds for campaign funds. I've even stood for election.

I'm pretty fucked off that all that work was for nothing. I'm also pretty fucked off that one of the reasons it was for nothing is still being ignored and excused by the former leadership, by left labour members and by the wider left. If we can't look at the last 5 years dispassionately and work out what went wrong and what can be done better in future, what hope is there? What point is there?
 
Where does that dispassionate view start though? What is wrong with the opinion that yes there was antisemitism within the party which Corbyn did not handle (but largely because his efforts were hamstrung by people within the party actively working against him). That Corbyn isn't himself antisemitic - he's explained but given a proper apology for statements that were insensitive.

That's what I think happened. Yes we move on but to me that's the position to move on from.
 
is still being ignored and excused by the former leadership, by left labour members and by the wider left.
Is it being ignored and excused? I dont see that. I saw a genuine and proportional attempt to deal with it actively subverted by Labour HQ, the media and malicious actors

The "strong" response would be to do a Starmer - a disastrous approach as we shall see play out
 
Where does that dispassionate view start though? What is wrong with the opinion that yes there was antisemitism within the party which Corbyn did not handle (but largely because his efforts were hamstrung by people within the party actively working against him). That Corbyn isn't himself antisemitic - he's explained but given a proper apology for statements that were insensitive.

That's what I think happened. Yes we move on but to me that's the position to move on from.
Surely it's better to pretend that Labour has been infiltrated on a massive scale by anti-semites, has become institutionally antisemitic and racist in general, was led by a Jew-baiter and that anyone who says different is either racist themselves, insensitive, ignorant or covering things up. Then let's purge the party of as many left wingers as we can, whilst retaining a few loyalists so that we can still be a broad church. Oh, and then let's ignore any Jewish Labour voices who dissent as well. Job done.
 
Surely it's better to pretend that Labour has been infiltrated on a massive scale by anti-semites, has become institutionally antisemitic and racist in general, was led by a Jew-baiter and that anyone who says different is either racist themselves, insensitive, ignorant or covering things up. Then let's purge the party of as many left wingers as we can, whilst retaining a few loyalists so that we can still be a broad church. Oh, and then let's ignore any Jewish Labour voices who dissent as well. Job done.
Y'see, this is bullshit. No-one here is asking for anything like this.
 
I see that the politically-motivated weaponisation of anti-Semitism within the Labour party has gone well. Thank goodness we have competent adults like Kier Starmer in charge now.
 
A proper critique of Corbyn, Corbynism, left Labourism, parliamentarism as a way of achieving socialism in any meaningful sense, and finally, looking at the merits of non-reformist anti-parliamentary and pro-revolutionary alternatives?

Agreed, although should also include what Corbyn/Labour could have done if they'd achieved power in 2017 (i.e. how/whether they'd have improved conditions for most people), along with the reasons they didn't and why the last election was so disastrous.
 
Surely it's better to pretend that Labour has been infiltrated on a massive scale by anti-semites, has become institutionally antisemitic and racist in general, was led by a Jew-baiter and that anyone who says different is either racist themselves, insensitive, ignorant or covering things up. Then let's purge the party of as many left wingers as we can, whilst retaining a few loyalists so that we can still be a broad church. Oh, and then let's ignore any Jewish Labour voices who dissent as well. Job done.
I think if the right wing media cared about anti-semitism, it would be worth debating it with them. If the right of the labour party cared about anti-semitism, it would be worth arguing definitions with them. They don't. They pulled the classic political trick on you: accused you of fucking a pig. Now you feel you have to go around denying it, saying 'I didn't fuck a pig', which leads people to say why is there mud on your flies (look at this minor instance of actual anti-semitism). And then you think you should explain how the mud got there, or deny that the mud exists. And how does that look? When you're accused of fucking a pig in bad faith, move on to the issues that you want to talk about. The more you say 'I didn't fuck a pig' the more people hear about you fucking pigs.

At some point the issue of what actual anti-semitism is and how it can be dealt with does have to be discussed. But it cannot possibly be discussed in this atmosphere. So move on. Come back to it later when it's possible to have a rational discussion. Stop standing there with mud on your flies saying 'I didn't fuck a pig'. It won't build socialism.
 
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Also, some of your friends did like, brush up against the pig to get a little frisson of excitement. You'll have to deal with that too.
 
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