sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Why, the alternative is battling the Tories/Brexit Party for leave votes. They need to come out for Remain now.
Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
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mojo pixy
○-<{[°_°]}>-○
Or Leave. But something ffs, be for something. This mealy-mouthed, reactive shite is really too much.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Precisely. Coming out for remain, in my firm opinion, would be a slow motion car crash which would drive the final stake through labour in working class areas. But it’s still better than this steaming pile of shite
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh this umming and erring is so undignified
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
It would certainly be the end for a section of the working class that in any case left a while ago or had a foot out of the door. On the other hand, the diverse working classes that voted Remain will be happy.
For the many who don’t care that much and can remember when they gave nary a shit about Europe there may be a temporary disconnect and then no more damage or rather no more than the disconnect that there was before. Deeds not words or phoney democracy bridges that gap.
Puddy_Tat
santa paws, do you ever come to the ghetto?
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
When people are arguing Labour need to come out for X, is this need based on electoral considerations, political considerations or what?
Electorally to form a government, particularly a majority government, Labour (and the Tories) are going to need to get votes from both those that voted leave and those that supported remain. The party needs to keep their seats with a strong Leave vote. It also needs, or at least strongly wants, to keep MPs in those seats voting on the party line.
Is this attempt to straddle the divide good, no of course it isn't, it is a confused mess. But is it worse than pushing some MPs towards breaking the party line and voting for a deal, is it worse than losing some votes/seats in their heartlands and in marginal constituencies. To re-use killer b's line - there are no good alternatives. The LP is a coalition, with a number of competing electoral and political needs. There is no unambiguous need for the LP to come out for remain, rather there is want of that from some people. (Coming out for leaving the EU on a social democratic basis was lost as an option a long time ago with the need to keep members on board).
Electorally to form a government, particularly a majority government, Labour (and the Tories) are going to need to get votes from both those that voted leave and those that supported remain. The party needs to keep their seats with a strong Leave vote. It also needs, or at least strongly wants, to keep MPs in those seats voting on the party line.
Is this attempt to straddle the divide good, no of course it isn't, it is a confused mess. But is it worse than pushing some MPs towards breaking the party line and voting for a deal, is it worse than losing some votes/seats in their heartlands and in marginal constituencies. To re-use killer b's line - there are no good alternatives. The LP is a coalition, with a number of competing electoral and political needs. There is no unambiguous need for the LP to come out for remain, rather there is want of that from some people. (Coming out for leaving the EU on a social democratic basis was lost as an option a long time ago with the need to keep members on board).
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They're trying to stop no-deal being a referendum option. There has to be a deal for anything else to go on the ballot. After that they can do as they did in 1975 and 2016 and let party members campaign as they choose.
If they back revoke too early the second referendum will be the government and most of the print media demanding no-deal while revokers get distracted by trying to bury the left.
If they back revoke too early the second referendum will be the government and most of the print media demanding no-deal while revokers get distracted by trying to bury the left.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Bring it on, say I, so we never hear talk of reclaiming the shitty Labour Party ever again
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Tbh some sort of democratic accelerationism is pretty much the only good possible outcome
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Both, they look confused and indecisive about an important issue.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
So outline these electoral/political considerations.
Because your political objectives, and so "needs", are not the objectives of the LP.
You want a progressive liberal party and if the political objective of the LP was to become that then yes it would need to embrace the type of pro-EU Watson crap that you favour. But your political objective is not supported by large chunks of the party, the majority of LP members are supportive of Corbyn and want some type of social democratic party, as so there are very different "needs" to meet those political objectives.
On the electoral front I'll repeat my question (that no one who has advocated a full remain position has answered) how do they get a majority with full remain? How do they keep seats like Ashfield, Bolsover? Which seats are they going to gain?
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Well this is the point isn't it. What most people seem to want is for the LP to be a different party. Which is fine, but then not lets talk crap about needs.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
It's much worse than that.
A GE campaign with a policy of remain effectively rules out any realistic prospect of the votes Labour lost under Blair and Miliband coming back. Possibly for ever. As you say it puts into play labour held seats which are leave and it means labour are reduced to fighting it out with the liberals and greens for the share of the vote in seats that already hold and piled votes up in the 2017 GE.
The only hope would be a GE fought on domestic issues where voter set aside Brexit when voting. But there are two differences between now and 2017. First, Labour previously campaigned to leave and now it will campaign to remain and secondly, all polling tells us Brexit has become much more polarising since 2017.
Leaving the entire leave vote open to Johnson and Farage is an open goal that they are unlikely to miss.
Reckon its just personal preference for the outcome. Labour / Corbyn should just do what I want to happen then everything will be fine.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Well exactly.
Labour have done what they want to happen though.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
A full swing to remain (and by extension a wholly liberal party) will be a total seperation of link between labour and its primary historical constituency. Not overnight but irriversible.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
As soon as you mention the second ref the next question is what are you going to campaign for?.
It has to be remain, because if it was leave why would you bother with a second ref at all?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
as opposed to the partial separation we have now
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
There is so much wrong with this, but I will limit my reply to one point.
Go and look at France to see where you demand we go. Look at the left polling less than 10%. Look at the re-branded fascists fighting it out with a shabby neo-liberal for power. Look at the streets burning. Look at the dangerous forces on the rise among the peripheral.
This is directly where your politics of writing off for good 'a section of the working class' (your crude code for white poor people living in areas ravaged by capitalism). The 'diverse working class' (your crude code for people living mainly in cities with higher levels of social and cultural capital) as you put it will vote Labour, Green, Liberal, SNP, Plaid or whoever best represents their interests at any given point in time. They will not support genuinely re-distributive politics unless they think it preserves or restores their position. Their support is always contingent.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Is this aimed at us all?
If Labour go into the next election promising a second referendum, what's the option for leave? May's deal? No deal? Can't you see a problem with either of those being on the ballot? In which case, any new government would have to negotiate a new deal of some sort to go on the ballot - you reckon they should do that while their own policy is to campaign against it in a confirmatory referendum?
And you think Labour are confused.
no, it's aimed at people on the thread who want Labour to offer a second referendum.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
May's deal is dead, a new Labour negotiated deal is fantasy, put no deal on it.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Like I said - the LP needs to embrace liberalism
Loving all this pragmatic centrist politics, must say.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Well yeah it's a longstanding work in progress... Wouldn't see any even slight way back from this point though
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