Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[Fez909]

The result of the referendum was ‘leave’. Labour called for it to be enacted immediately and campaigned to respect the result in the GE. It remained its policy until yesterday.

I’m struggling to understand why you are struggling

The first result for "what is campaigning?":

Campaigning is about creating a change. You might call it influencing, voice, advocacy or campaigning, but all these activities are about creating change.

Labour weren't trying to change anything by 'respecting the vote'. Brexit is/was the existing direction. They were going along with the status quo.

I'm sure you can pick holes in that definition, but it's roughly what I would think campaigning means, too.

 

[Dogsauce]

The result of the referendum was ‘leave’. Labour called for it to be enacted immediately (...)

They didn’t. I see this one quoted a lot, mainly by anti-Corbyn ‘centrists’, but he clarified his words shortly after the statement, confirming that he was not calling for immediate triggering of Article 50.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Has Corbyn changed his mind on Article 50?

 

[chilango]

If it stops the LibDem revival I'm all for it.

 

[Supine]

If it stops the LibDem revival I'm all for it.

Do you think it will? I was thinking it'll continue with this policy.

 

[chilango]

Do you think it will? I was thinking it'll continue with this policy.

I've no idea.

I'm trying to find a positive!

 

[Supine]

I've no idea.

I'm trying to find a positive!

Increasingly difficult in this day and age

 

[redsquirrel]

If it stops the LibDem revival I'm all for it.

Sadly it won't. A lot of the boost to the yellow filth is coming from liberal Tories, hence all the council seats.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Ashfield (70% leave vote) was a Labour heartland it's now one of their most marginal seats. The LP lost 20 council seats at this years LE. Now it is perfectly possible that Labour may hold it next time around. Especially if both the BP and Tories compete - you could have the same type of result as in the Peterborough by-election. But to claim that there aren't large number of people that are angry at the LP, that there is not a voter base that may be receptive to the national populist message of the BP is total crap.
File:AshfieldGraph.svg - Wikipedia

Well. in Ashfield in 2015 the Tories and UKIP were both on 10k, in 2017 UKIP had gone down to 1k and the Tories had gone up to 20k, Labour only had a 1k increase, despite being for brexit, what makes you think these are labour voters?. The lib dems were neck and neck with labour in 2010, where have those votes gone?

 

[hash tag]

I see three peers, Triesman, Darzi and Turnberg have now resigned over anti semitism and there is even a programme on about it tonight BBC One - Panorama, Is Labour Anti-Semitic?
In the meantime, someone who said Erdogan was a goat lover, calls women letter boxes and calls people piccaninnies and likens them to watermelons. He was even called a racist in
parliament yet he remains in the running to be our next PM...
Something is well twisted here.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well. in Ashfield in 2015 the Tories and UKIP were both on 10k, in 2017 UKIP had gone down to 1k and the Tories had gone up to 20k, Labour only had a 1k increase, despite being for brexit, what makes you think these are labour voters?. The lib dems were neck and neck with labour in 2010, where have those votes gone?

The great ballot box in the sky

 

[redsquirrel]

Well. in Ashfield in 2015 the Tories and UKIP were both on 10k, in 2017 UKIP had gone down to 1k and the Tories had gone up to 20k, Laabour only had a 1k increase, what makes you think these are labour voters?. The lib dems were neck and neck with labour in 2010, where have those votes gone?

When did you stop hitting your wife?
You are asking me to answer questions about claims I've never made. Clearly much of the 2015 UKIP vote moved to the Tories in 2017. That does not invalidate my point that "there [are a] large number of people that are angry at the LP, [and] that there is a voter base that may be receptive to the national populist message of the BP".

 

[sleaterkinney]

When did you stop hitting your wife?
You are asking me to answer questions about claims I've never made. Clearly much of the 2015 UKIP vote moved to the Tories in 2017. That does not invalidate my point that "there [are a] large number of people that are angry at the LP, [and] that there is a voter base that may be receptive to the national populist message of the BP".

Nice little retort to drop in.
You pointed out that it's a marginal and I pointed out where the brexit vote actually went and where there were other votes to be had.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Nice little retort to drop in.
You pointed out that it's a marginal and I pointed out where the brexit vote actually went and where there were other votes to be had.

You are right that UKIP and the BP have and will act as significant collection point of transmission for life long labour voters and communities on the move politically away from the 100 year plus link between them and Labour. In the current moment some will vote BP, some Tory. But that isn't the most important of consequences. All of the evidence suggests that once these votes cross the rubicon they don't come back. Second, these voters are politically 'up for grabs' as their loyalty to non-labour parties is weak. It's the territory where pro working class politics should be operating but isn't.

 

[likesfish]

Country is split 50:50 more or less on brexit most of what leave promised were lies and now being replaced with England prevails fuck foreigners as they cant actually deliver anything and its dawning on most people its a self inflicted injury but at least we will be free! ( which is always going to play well with the English who dont bother to think very hard).

Working class politics are on life support if they exsist at all I think the last hurrah was respect and that disappeared by Georges arse along with a copy of the koran

 

[Mr Moose]

When did you stop hitting your wife?
You are asking me to answer questions about claims I've never made. Clearly much of the 2015 UKIP vote moved to the Tories in 2017. That does not invalidate my point that "there [are a] large number of people that are angry at the LP, [and] that there is a voter base that may be receptive to the national populist message of the BP".

At some point Brexit as the sole focus of political delivery is going to run out of steam. All electoral politics has a shelf life.

One day it may seem very whiffy indeed. It takes tremendous energy to maintain the public’s interest in something that doesn’t put food on the table, money in their pockets or provide better services. When it does none of that or it continues to provide political paralysis what happens then?

 

[redsquirrel]

At some point Brexit as the sole focus of political delivery is going to run out of steam. All electoral politics has a shelf life.

One day it may seem very whiffy indeed. It takes tremendous energy to maintain the public’s interest in something that doesn’t put food on the table, money in their pockets or provide better services. When it does none of that or it continues to provide political paralysis what happens then?

That makes the mistake that national populist politics are being driven solely or even mainly by the issue of the UK leaving the EU. That clearly is not true.

 

[Smangus]

Labours fucked now , even if he isn't one Corbyn just comes across like a ditherer and people won't vote for that.

 

[SpackleFrog]

You are right that UKIP and the BP have and will act as significant collection point of transmission for life long labour voters and communities on the move politically away from the 100 year plus link between them and Labour. In the current moment some will vote BP, some Tory. But that isn't the most important of consequences. All of the evidence suggests that once these votes cross the rubicon they don't come back. Second, these voters are politically 'up for grabs' as their loyalty to non-labour parties is weak. It's the territory where pro working class politics should be operating but isn't.

Sort of agree except about these votes never coming back.

One of the most fascinating things I've seen in recent years is how Golden Dawn supporters switched to Syriza a while back in Greece. Sanders voters switching to Trump too. We're living through a fluid period.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Sort of agree except about these votes never coming back.

One of the most fascinating things I've seen in recent years is how Golden Dawn supporters switched to Syriza a while back in Greece. Sanders voters switching to Trump too. We're living through a fluid period.

Um, yeah, that what the point I was making. Once slipped free of its labourist moorings this group can go anywhere. All of the evidence is that is does not return 'home'. See Labour in Scotland.

And rust belt states in the US

 

[SpackleFrog]

Um, yeah, that what the point I was making. Once slipped free of its labourist moorings this group can go anywhere. All of the evidence is that is does not return 'home'. See Labour in Scotland.

And rust belt states in the US

No, I'm disagreeing. A lot of 2015 UKIP voters came back to Labour in 2017.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

No, I'm disagreeing. A lot of 2015 UKIP voters came back to Labour in 2017.

You’ll need to evidence that claim. In the 2017 GE former UKIP voters went;

30% didn’t vote
43% went Tory
12% voted labour

Even if you strip out those who didn’t vote labour before 2015 there was no return to labour.

Why did so many voters switch parties between 2015 and 2017?

 

[Mr Moose]

That makes the mistake that national populist politics are being driven solely or even mainly by the issue of the UK leaving the EU. That clearly is not true.

No, that’s precisely the mistake I’m not making. It’s what you are doing by insisting the referendum must be honoured to keep the Labour heartlands onside.

 

[agricola]

You’ll need to evidence that claim. In the 2017 GE former UKIP voters went;

30% didn’t vote
43% went Tory
12% voted labour

Even if you strip out those who didn’t vote labour before 2015 there was no return to labour.

Why did so many voters switch parties between 2015 and 2017?

12% of the 2015 UKIP vote is nearly half a million people, though. It was probably enough to tip some seats Labour's way.

 

[SpackleFrog]

12% of the 2015 UKIP vote is nearly half a million people, though. It was probably enough to tip some seats Labour's way.

Aye. More importantly it came in Northern constituencies where people had shifted to UKIP in large numbers.

 

[redsquirrel]

No, that’s precisely the mistake I’m not making. It’s what you are doing by insisting the referendum must be honoured to keep the Labour heartlands onside.

For God's sake read what people are posting. I have not once "insisted the referendum be honoured". Pointing out the consequences of a course of action is not an argument for or against that action.

This is basic fucking stuff.

 

[Mr Moose]

For God's sake read what people are posting. I have not once "insisted the referendum be honoured". Pointing out the consequences of a course of action is not an argument for or against that action.

This is basic fucking stuff.

You’ve consistently made the case. C’mon you are not a mere dispassionate observer.

 

[A380]

Sadly it won't. A lot of the boost to the yellow filth is coming from liberal Tories, hence all the council seats.

Yeah, but business before pleasure.

 

[redsquirrel]

You’ve consistently made the case. C’mon you are not a mere dispassionate observer.

Where? This is a straight up lie.
Unlike you I can separate my personal political desires from the political objectives of the LP. FFS I'm opposed to the LP.

This is the same fucking nonsense that creates support for the UK immigration policies from criticism of the EUs immigration policies, or that creates racism from the acknowledgement that capital is using migration.

Pointing out that most marginal seats (key to either party becoming a government - especially a majority government) tend to have majorities that voted for leave, and thus that moving to a hardcore remain position both puts Lab-Con marginals in danger and makes it harder to win key Con-Lab marginals is not advocating that "the result of the referendum be honoured".

 

[Smokeandsteam]

12% of the 2015 UKIP vote is nearly half a million people, though. It was probably enough to tip some seats Labour's way.

Yes, but my point was that labour voters who left didn’t come back. The hard evidence is 88% of them didn’t. If there is other evidence to contradict the evidence I’ve shared I’d be happy to see it