Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[Sprocket.]

anyway it has happened here.

a long time ago, sure, but the guy who led our most famous military dictatorship still has his statue outside the so-called mother of parliaments.

It was just some lads having a laugh apparently.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Senior military have been issuing ominous warnings for some time now. Just a few bad apples I’m sure.

British Army 'could stage mutiny under Corbyn', says senior serving general

 

[Spymaster]

Do you recognise that the tories have been pushing the idea that Corbyn represents a threat to national security? Do you also recognise that armies invariably organise coups in the name of national security, and even 'saving democracy'? To do that, armies need not only generals to do the plotting, but footsoldiers to do the work on the street. It's not hyperbole to see this in that context - at a minimum it is normalising for those soldiers the idea that Corbyn is the enemy.

There are countries not very far away where some of us may have been on holiday, where there have been military coups. If this had happened there (“this” being serving members of the armed forces fantasising about taking out the leader of the opposition), you may have seen it in a different light. I wonder why you don’t see it like that here? Your regret is that it gives people a license to overreact, rather than that it is an entirely inappropriate thing for serving members of the armed forces to do, given their position.

Yes, pretty much. Sorry chaps but I cannot see this event as a harbinger of a coup d'état.

 

[Sprocket.]

Could I say here that I see Corbyn more of a Stilgoe than a Steptoe.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, pretty much. Sorry chaps but I cannot see this event as a harbinger of a coup d'état.

Such things as military coups require what historians call retrospectively necessary preconditions. Otherwise plots won't get too far. The plot against Wilson didn't get very far as it happened, although Wilson himself was concerned about the idea, and was labelled paranoid for being concerned. Turns out he was right to have been paranoid.

A climate within the army that sees Corbyn as a potential threat to national security would be a necessary precondition for an attempted coup. A country in political chaos, perhaps following something like a brexit, with the government collapsing and being replaced by Corbyn, perhaps with a wafer-thin majority, and with now-opposition tories shrieking that he is a Marxist and worse than Chávez, would see certain other necessary precondition boxes getting ticked. An army with whole regiments of fuckwits who think it's a lark to shoot at images of Corbyn might be another.

As it happens, I suspect that one necessary precondition probably wouldn't arise. Like Wilson, Corbyn just wouldn't actually be very left wing in the end. It doesn't take much, though. We're not talking communist revolution here, merely mild threats to the interests of the capitalist and propertied classes.

 

[mojo pixy]

It was just some lads having a laugh apparently.

there was that one chap who had his head laughed right off. we need more of that kind of humour in politics today.

 

[Sprocket.]

there was that one chap who had his head laughed right off. we need more of that kind of humour in politics today.

More sinister is the idea that Theresa May and JRM are new age puritans and jesuits sent to purge the land in preparation for the second coming!

 

[Spymaster]

A climate within the army that sees Corbyn as a potential threat to national security would be a necessary precondition for an attempted coup. A country in political chaos, perhaps following something like a brexit, with the government collapsing and being replaced by Corbyn, perhaps with a wafer-thin majority, and with now-opposition tories shrieking that he is a Marxist and worse than Chávez, would see certain other necessary precondition boxes getting ticked. An army with whole regiments of fuckwits who think it's a lark to shoot at images of Corbyn might be another.

It's FOUR dickheads, ffs! 5 if you include the cameraman.

If the picture was of Thatcher back in the day you lot would have been urging them to get the rifles and flamethrowers out.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If the picture was of Thatcher back in the day you lot would have been urging them to get the rifles and flamethrowers out.

That wouldn't have happened, though, would it? And danny is right to call sas out on his hypocrisy over this. Sas has screamed 'traitor' at people for far less.

If your 'you lot' includes me, then no, I wouldn't, even though it would never have happened anyway, although context is everything. A mutiny against a leader sending you into war is an entirely different thing, for instance. Such mutinies played a crucial role in bringing World War 1 to an end.

 

[Treacle Toes]

It would have been a massive thing to have happened with Thatcher regardless of how much many here hated her. It would have caused a whole heap of furore.

This 'just anti-military' arguement is interesting, by that logic it's just 'pro military' peeps insisting it's not significant then?

 

[Spymaster]

That wouldn't have happened, though, would it? And danny is right to call sas out on his hypocrisy over this. Sas has screamed 'traitor' at people for far less.

If your 'you lot' includes me, then no, I wouldn't, even though it would never have happened anyway, although context is everything. A mutiny against a leader sending you into war is an entirely different thing, for instance. Such mutinies played a crucial role in bringing World War 1 to an end.

I don't know what Danny and Sas have got going on but it seems to be something from another thread and Sas can fight his own battles. I still think you're both massively over egging this pudding.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't know what Danny and Sas have got going on but it seems to be something from another thread and Sas can fight his own battles. I still think you're both massively over egging this pudding.

The tory anti-corbyn 'national security' frothing is a more concerning aspect. In most respects, it's laughable, but if Corbyn does come to power and it continues, it could become much less of a joke.

 

[chilango]

The other evening I was speaking to someone who is going to switch their vote from Labour to Conservative next election.

With a completely straight face their justification was that Corbyn would be disaster at international negotiation.

 

[redsquirrel]

The other evening I was speaking to someone who is going to switch their vote from Labour to Conservative next election.

Longterm Labour voter, or just in 2017?

 

[Mr Moose]

Senior military have been issuing ominous warnings for some time now. Just a few bad apples I’m sure.

British Army 'could stage mutiny under Corbyn', says senior serving general

I think Corbyn could, oddly enough be ‘good’ for the military. Labour’s last manifesto commited 2% of GDP and an increase in forces wages.

While he may try to get rid of Trident (and probably fail) and stop commissioning big ticket items like aircraft carriers, he certainly likes the state to spend. I could imagine a lot of money being spent on rapid reaction forces, fast coastal water vessels, defensive infrastructure etc. It could be painted as less aggressive and good for jobs. And as the bar for foreign intervention and adventure should be higher fewer personnel may die, which has to be a win. Better paid and alive.

These four dickheads could be National Action types and a credible threat. They could also be just having a laugh with a bit of handy Labour election material sent out in 2017 to engage the forces. They may have been shooting at Piers Morgan or Bono yesterday. The Army seems concerned enough to find out.

 

[agricola]

The tory anti-corbyn 'national security' frothing is a more concerning aspect. In most respects, it's laughable, but if Corbyn does come to power and it continues, it could become much less of a joke.

It would, though one of the advantages he would have is that Tory (and New Labour) defence policy has been so awful for so many years that it wouldn't take a lot to visibly improve on it. Even something as relatively minor as dealing with the rip-off that is defence housing would save billions and put him in the good books of every service person who has ever had to live in one.

If a Corbyn-led Labour government ever had a proper go at reforming the MoD there would be loads of chat about coups, but the likelyhood of one would decrease the more effective the reform was. At a relatively early point in the process they wouldn't be able to find anyone to actually carry the thing out.

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't know what Danny and Sas have got going on but it seems to be something from another thread and Sas can fight his own battles. I still think you're both massively over egging this pudding.

It’s the same argument, but it was going on on the bandwidth thread, so I brought it here instead.

 

[danny la rouge]

It's FOUR dickheads, ffs! 5 if you include the cameraman.

If the picture was of Thatcher back in the day you lot would have been urging them to get the rifles and flamethrowers out.

Five dickheads who are soldiers. Not bankers on a team building weekend. Not gamekeepers on a stag.

The question is, did they do this because there is a culture in the forces that would approve of it? Sas literally said he approved of it.

You say that had it been Thatcher, I’d have cheered. But that’s to miss two points: first, that it wouldn’t have been. And secondly, that I wouldn’t have cheered. I might have done had it been some other group, but for all I opposed Thatcher, I wouldn’t have preferred a military coup.

 

[Spymaster]

Five dickheads who are soldiers. Not bankers on a team building weekend. Not gamekeepers on a stag.

The question is, did they do this because there is a culture in the forces that would approve of it?

I certainly don't think that you can draw the conclusion from that video that there is.

Sas literally said he approved of it.

Take that up with him. You've heard from other soldiers here, serving and ex, who don't.

 

[andysays]

But not, and this is fundamental, by the standing army. If you can’t understand the difference, then it’s probably because you haven’t understood the role of the state.

I think Sasaferrato has already demonstrated conclusively that he doesn't understand the role of the state, or even what it actually is. Just a group of people living in a particular geographical area, or something similar.

I wonder if this is because he spent so much of his life working as its lackey, or if the role as lackey was the result of the misunderstanding.

 

[Spymaster]

They could also be just having a laugh with a bit of handy Labour election material sent out in 2017 to engage the forces. They may have been shooting at Piers Morgan or Bono yesterday. The Army seems concerned enough to find out.

This is exactly what I think has happened.

 

[chilango]

Longterm Labour voter, or just in 2017?

Floater

 

[danny la rouge]

I certainly don't think that you can draw the conclusion from that video that there is.

I’m not doing. I’m saying they raise the question.

The parallel I might draw is with all the racist cops who turned out to be “one bad apple”.

Take that up with him. You've heard from other soldiers here, serving and ex, who don't.

I did take it up with him. He wasn’t very impressed.

 

[danny la rouge]

Floater

He only asked!

 

[Spymaster]

I did take it up with him. He wasn’t very impressed.

 

[eoin_k]

The idea of Tory officers leading a mutiny in the British Army against the government of the day is simply preposterous. This sort of thing hasn't happened since the twentieth century.

 

[butchersapron]

How many rifles do you need again?

 

[eoin_k]

Could you arrange, say, two hundred tons, including ammunition, Major.

 

[danny la rouge]

The idea of Tory officers leading a mutiny in the British Army against the government of the day is simply preposterous. This sort of thing hasn't happened since the twentieth century.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Senior military have been issuing ominous warnings for some time now. Just a few bad apples I’m sure.

British Army 'could stage mutiny under Corbyn', says senior serving general

Unfriendly fire: would a Corbyn government lead to a military revolt?

Last September, only a week after Corbyn’s overwhelming election as leader, the Sunday Times quoted “a senior serving general”, who warned that “feelings are running very high within the armed forces” about the possibility of a Corbyn government. “You can’t put a maverick in charge of a country’s security,” the officer went on. “You would see … generals directly and publicly challenging Corbyn over … Trident, pulling out of Nato and any plans to emasculate and shrink the size of the armed forces … There would be mass resignations at all levels … which would effectively be a mutiny.” If Corbyn proved as militarily radical a premier as promised, “the army just wouldn’t stand for it. The general staff would not allow a prime minister to jeopardise the security of this country and I think people would use whatever means possible, fair or foul, to prevent that.”

On the Arrse website, contributors were typically blunt about what they thought the general meant. “This senior officer is talking about a coup,” wrote one. “Whats[sic] wrong with a Coup if the Generals are loyal to the Crown?” asked another. “Let her decide who runs the country?”

For anyone alarmed by all this, the official military response was not completely reassuring. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) merely described the general’s remarks as “not helpful”. The MoD “ruled out a leak inquiry”, the Independent reported, “on the grounds that it would be impossible to identify the culprit” – even though the Sunday Times had described the officer as “having served in Northern Ireland in the 1980s and 1990s”.