Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[danny la rouge]

I find it very difficult to separate the truth from the hyperbole surrounding this

A lot of people do.

Have you been on Palestinian justice demonstrations and heard people chanting stuff that's made you feel uncomfortable? Instead of just ignoring that, Labour has to say no, that isn't what we're about.

Have you heard people say "we are Hamas" even though they're Islamist cunts who murder trade unionists? Labour has to say, "no we aren't".

Have you heard people slipping in and out of whether it's Jews, Zionists, or Israel they're criticising? Labour needs to introduce clarity of language, and call out that slippery terminology.

People like Jim Sheridan (who was in no way ambiguous) should be in no doubt that they'll be expelled.

These things are not anti Corbyn hyperbole.

 

[DownwardDog]

He needs to find something credible, something that isn't too fuzzy with caveats, and something that isn't defensive but rather puts him in the role of the one taking positive action.

Referendum on reintroduction of the death penalty.

 

[TopCat]

Referendum on reintroduction of the death penalty.

No!!!

 

[danny la rouge]

Referendum on reintroduction of the death penalty.

As my final piece of free advice to the Labour Party, I'd suggest not that either.

 

[Toast Rider]

Perhaps that's the price he now has to pay for having 30+ years of consequence-free swimming in sewers?

The easiest way to discern the 'truth' of this situation is to reverse it: if, after 40 years of being a Tory party member, MP, Home Secretary and PM, Theresa May was deep in the political mire over her support for crony capitalism, shit welfare 'reforms', and all the rest - and then declared that in fact she was a lifelong socialist in the hope that the bad headlines would stop - would anyone believe her, or indeed care, citing the fact that she'd been quite happy to go against pretty much every principle of socialism during her career?

I have no sympathy for Corbyn or his position - yes the anti-Semitism stuff is being used as a weapon against him by his political opponents, but that's only possible because he has, for the last 30+ years, been happily stocking up their armouries with this stuff thinking there would never be a reckoning for building a career out of skirting the conspiraloon/anti-Semitic/deeply unsavoury cesspits on the world.

I don't know if that's true; has he swum in those sewers? Or is he associated with it because he has similar views - ie pro Palestine. I haven't seen anything that shows me he's more directly involved. Not saying he isn't.

 

[Pickman's model]

No!!!

how about ...on the reintroduction of the death penalty for the monarchy?

 

[butchersapron]

I don't know if that's true; has he swum in those sewers? Or is he associated with it because he has similar views - ie pro Palestine. I haven't seen anything that shows me he's more directly involved. Not saying he isn't.

...and you're not going to say very much if you don't actually bother to look at the stuff that had been posted over and over and get a grip on the context.

 

[TopCat]

how about ...on the reintroduction of the death penalty for the monarchy?

Yes!!!

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't know if that's true; has he swum in those sewers? Or is he associated with it because he has similar views - ie pro Palestine. I haven't seen anything that shows me he's more directly involved. Not saying he isn't.

Do you not have any direct experience of the sorts of examples I've just posted? Even if you don't, like butchers has said, there have been numerous posts on this thread explaining and discussing the context. Even if all you want to allow is that Corbyn has been disastrous at dealing with it, you have to admit it's there.

 

[Pickman's model]

Do you not have any direct experience of the sorts of examples I've just posted? Even if you don't, like butchers has said, there have been numerous posts on this thread explaining and discussing the context. Even if all you want to allow is that Corbyn has been disastrous at dealing with it, you have to admit it's there.

we can explain it to tr, we cannot understand it for tr.

 

[Toast Rider]

A lot of people do.

Have you been on Palestinian justice demonstrations and heard people chanting stuff that's made you feel uncomfortable? Instead of just ignoring that, Labour has to say no, that isn't what we're about.

Have you heard people say "we are Hamas" even though they're Islamist cunts who murder trade unionists? Labour has to say, "no we aren't".

Have you heard people slipping in and out of whether it's Jews, Zionists, or Israel they're criticising? Labour needs to introduce clarity of language, and call out that slippery terminology.

People like Jim Sheridan (who was in no way ambiguous) should be in no doubt that they'll be expelled.

These things are not anti Corbyn hyperbole.

No. I don't live where things like that happen. So I don't have these experiences. I'm not saying they don't happen either; if you tell me that shit goes on then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But I have to ask if it's reasonable to pin that on Corbyn?

Of course peoplke like that ought to be expelled. I have no problem with that

 

[Toast Rider]

we can explain it to tr, we cannot understand it for tr.

I didn't ask you to

 

[Pickman's model]

I didn't ask you to

nor did i say you had.

 

[Toast Rider]

Do you not have any direct experience of the sorts of examples I've just posted? Even if you don't, like butchers has said, there have been numerous posts on this thread explaining and discussing the context. Even if all you want to allow is that Corbyn has been disastrous at dealing with it, you have to admit it's there.

I don't have direct experience.

I don't think I have denied anything. I'm trying to ascertain how we can move forward from the point of view of getting the Tories out of office since labour are the only viable alternative presently IMO.

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't have direct experience.

I don't think I have denied anything. I'm trying to ascertain how we can move forward from the point of view of getting the Tories out of office since labour are the only viable alternative presently IMO.

Well, I've given my opinion on how Corbyn and his team could extract themselves from this. Not that I think they will. I think what'll happen is that in his incompetent bungling he'll end up trashing the reputation of the Labour left and the "progressives" will regain the party helm.

 

[TopCat]

Well, I've given my opinion on how Corbyn and his team could extract themselves from this. Not that I think they will. I think what'll happen is that in his incompetent bungling he'll end up trashing the reputation of the Labour left and the "progressives" will regain the party helm.

I dont think this campain to paint anti zionism as anti semitism will resonate with the electorate. The MPs who are using it as a stick to beat the left with are all headed binwards.

 

[danny la rouge]

I dont think this campain to paint anti zionism as anti semitism will resonate with the electorate.

I don't think any of it resonates with the electorate. I think most people think they'd rather not delve into arcane and esoteric - and possibly ultimately unsavoury - tropes in order to better understand it. That's really not the point, though.

 

[danny la rouge]

And before anyone asks what the point is, then. This is.

 

[mauvais]

He's got himself to the point where he doesn't have many places to turn. For example, even though there are sensible, non-racist objections to some of the IHRA definition examples, the NEC can't discuss them without being seen as the anti-Semitic dinosaurs locking horns with the "progressive" PLP. But let's be clear about this, he has done this. He has presided over this state of affairs.

What he needs is a better story. It's all about having a good story. Even without media support, if he has a good story they'll run it. They'll still run the anti stuff. But if his story is good, then people will hear it.

This is the sort of thing that I would say. I feel like this is true of lots of things - the narratives around the EU & Brexit, Miliband before Corbyn, and plenty more besides. Certainly it would be politically expedient to be setting that agenda, to lead the story, and certainly the current meagre, passively reactive response is no use at all.

However, because it's the sort of thing I would say, I can also see many of the problems with it. Variously: the assertion that both the individual issues within Labour and the resultant political pit we find him in are both more something Corbyn's done or carelessly permitted to happen than they are something deliberately done to him, the inadvertent goal of a return to spin and/or a model of singular leadership, the assumption that this issue can be resolved, the idea that this issue should be allowed to dominate the whole news agenda, and the idea that we do actually operate in some sort of 'narrative meritocracy' where the right message will succeed.

 

[Pickman's model]

Leaving aside this latest video, regardless of ones interpretation of it, there are three strands that some people seem to find it difficult to disentangle.

1. The disingenuous labelling of all criticism of the Israeli state, its actions and policies, as necessarily anti-Semitic.

2. The actual anti-semitism that exists on the left, often associated with Palestinian solidarity (which does not have to be anti-Semitic); the blind eye turned to it; the dodgy alliances thereby arrived at.

3. The use made of both of the above by anti Corbyn forces inside and outside of the Labour Party.

Corbyn and his team are at the very least accident-prone on dealing with this. They are especially inept at dealing with 1 and 3 because of 2.

We've all seen 2. It does us no favours to keep saying "but 1" or "but 3". At some point, we on the broader left, and the Labour left and leadership in particular, need to deal with 2, and decisively.

yeh but i fear the labour leadership will fuck up the tough decision and jump a way many people will find deplorable.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

I dont think this campain to paint anti zionism as anti semitism will resonate with the electorate. The MPs who are using it as a stick to beat the left with are all headed binwards.

Can someone ELI5 the whole "Labour is anti-semitic" thing; I haven't really been paying attention. Is it simply conflating criticism of Israel with criticism of all Jews, or is there more to it than that?

 

[Dogsauce]

He needs to go on more about taking back collective ownership of railways etc, which is popular across much of the population, but use strong language such as ‘taking back control’ which will resonate well (and tread on the toes of kippers as a bonus). Point out how much we’ve lost, ceded control and ownership to the private sector, not just industry but public spaces, school fields sold off for housing etc. Set the agenda. It’s a message people will swallow. At the moment it just feels like Labour is sitting back and taking the blows, some of which are self-delivered. Just waiting for the wheels to completely fall off the Tory clown car isn’t good enough.

 

[Toast Rider]

Well, I've given my opinion on how Corbyn and his team could extract themselves from this. Not that I think they will. I think what'll happen is that in his incompetent bungling he'll end up trashing the reputation of the Labour left and the "progressives" will regain the party helm.

Will they? Obviously I hope not (presumabnly you mean the Labour right). I don't see Corbyn giving up power, he has, to my understanding, a lot of support. It seems unresolvable

 

[killer b]

He needs to go on more about taking back collective ownership of railways etc, which is popular across much of the population, but use strong language such as ‘taking back control’ which will resonate well (and tread on the toes of kippers as a bonus). Point out how much we’ve lost, ceded control and ownership to the private sector, not just industry but public spaces, school fields sold off for housing etc. Set the agenda. It’s a message people will swallow. At the moment it just feels like Labour is sitting back and taking the blows, some of which are self-delivered. Just waiting for the wheels to completely fall off the Tory clown car isn’t good enough.

They do go on about all that stuff all the time tbf. Among other things, part of the reason this stuff has been focused on so much is as a smokescreen and a way to keep their attention and efforts focused on something other than pushing eye-catching policies to the public.

And while it may look like they're doing nothing but sitting there and taking the blows, this staggers article suggests Corbyn has had a very busy summer campaigning in marginals.

Jeremy Corbyn’s two universes

 

[danny la rouge]

Will they? Obviously I hope not (presumabnly you mean the Labour right). I don't see Corbyn giving up power, he has, to my understanding, a lot of support. It seems unresolvable

Are you a Labour Party member?

 

[imposs1904]

View attachment 145549

Anybody else notice that 'existential' seems to be the word of the week for the political class?

 

[killer b]

Are you a Labour Party member?

FWIW I don't think the Labour right have a chance at re-taking the party in the short to medium term. They don't have the support within the party - the best they can hope for (if Corbo goes at some point) is someone on the soft left, although even there it's not clear who.

 

[imposs1904]

FWIW I don't think the Labour right have a chance at re-taking the party in the short to medium term. They don't have the support within the party - the best they can hope for (if Corbo goes at some point) is someone on the soft left, although even there it's not clear who.

The surname Kinnock has a ring to it.

#(Labour)Party-Like-Its-1983.

 

[danny la rouge]

FWIW I don't think the Labour right have a chance at re-taking the party in the short to medium term. They don't have the support within the party - the best they can hope for (if Corbo goes at some point) is someone on the soft left, although even there it's not clear who.

You may be right about that. All I know is that the longer this goes on the fewer organised opponents the Labour right will have.

 

[danny la rouge]

This is the sort of thing that I would say.

You'll take that back!