Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
What are you on about? Corbyn and his team are from precisely the same 'mileu'. You also need to provide some facts to back up your assertion that he can communicate outside of the bubble.
Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
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What are you on about? Corbyn and his team are from precisely the same 'mileu'. You also need to provide some facts to back up your assertion that he can communicate outside of the bubble.
mauvais
on reddit or something
I spotted this factoid on the front page of a paper yesterday, and it turns out it's the salient point of everyone's story:
corbyn "£144 a night" - Google Search
Next week: "Labour coup in tatters after shock of £9.50 a day parking charge"
corbyn "£144 a night" - Google Search
Next week: "Labour coup in tatters after shock of £9.50 a day parking charge"
ska invita
back on the other side
i knew there were some out and out Tories, but I didnt realise how deep the rot was (n the sense of a distinction between lightweights/panderers and committed Tories) - the overall rot was never in doubt
For my two-penneth. It appears to be the core of the Anti-Semetism issue. It's quite right to be abhorrent about the policies of the Israeli Govenment and State organisations in what is clearly an effort at purging Israel (and given recent measures passed in the Knesset recently, even Israeli Arabs! The problem comes with the rhetoric involved. When talking about 'Trump-loving Jews' and similar statements, that crosses a line. One problem that isn't reported enough though is that some of the individuals receiving the abuse are verging on apologists for the Israeli states actions. Neither positions are helpful. Labour appears to be in a public relations crisis at the moment (launched by certain papers, to be sure), but they seem unwilling or ineffectual to address it and it will be damaging to them.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
If, hypothetically, Corbyn had brought half a million new members into the labour party, would that count as evidence? How about achieving a massive increase in the Labour vote at a general election despite zero support from the establishment media?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
North London Poly is hardly Oxbridge. He clearly does communicate with people that the Blairites couldn't, which is why those extra million or two votes came as a surprise to many.
krink
I'll do it this afternoon
this is something i like to remind the 3 mps in my city but now they've started saying they did so tactically so they could amend the bill or stop an amended bill or something? im not sure as i didn't pay it much attention as quite frankly, i wouldn't trust those three shits if they told me the sun was hot.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
My memory of all those succesful amendments and the thousands of people they saved from poverty has inexplicably deserted me
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
The bubble does not consist of white males from Islington, you know - it just mostly consists of them.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
His communication with the Jewish community is pretty lively.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Half a million new members is nothing to be sneered at. And there is no doubt that Corbyn has achieved something remarkable there. However, his personal ratings with the 'vote cattle' are less impressive. The latest poll (Ipsos Mori 20-24 July) indicates that Corbyn is less popular than May: 55% to 27% want him gone by the next election.
As for his background - he grew up in a manor house ,he went to a prep school before grammar school, he then went off to do some VSO work, became a union full timer and he's been an MP for 30 odd years. Not an Oxbridge PPE true, but also not from a 'different milieu' either.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Those leadership polls are meaningless though; when questioned people generally assess a political leader as strong if they are visibly in control of their party rather than using any other measure of leadership (such as actual performance, or the quality of their policies, or remaining steadfast when threatened) - hence why May's leadership ratings tumbled the moment the ERG threatened a revolt.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
35 years and a councillor for 9 before that.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
precisely the same milieu?
the preponderance of people - men and women - on the front benches of the last labour administration, the nefandous coalition and the current conservative government who have precisely the same life experiences, most frequently private school followed by oxbridge and most likely ppe at oxbridge, from whence they graduated to working for their chosen party and were consequently selected for seats in parliament is rather different from corbyn's past. he hasn't a degree. he isn't in the networks of the oxbridge mafia. while he has been a public representative since 1974 he never sought aggrandisement and only put his name forwards for the leadership election following miliband's departure so the views of the campaign group could be aired. like him or loathe him, it doesn't matter a jot to me. but if you can't see the difference between corbyn's past and the experiences of hague, cameron, blair, may, gove, johnson, and a whole host of other members of the political class you've a problem.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
precisely the same milieu?
1. The post I responded to (#22199) didn't mention "the front benches of the last labour administration, the nefandous coalition and the current conservative government" it specifically stated 'politics' and 'the Labour right' and claimed Corbyn was an outsider to this 'politics' and this specific grouping. To me the poster was suggesting Corbyn had suddenly emerged and was not someone who has worked inside the same system for nearly 40 years.
2. The post by me that you responded to ended with this "not an Oxbridge PPE, true" to which you state indicates that I've got a 'problem' of not being able to differentiate between the strain of the political class that Corbyn belongs to and the political class represented by erm Oxbridge PPE types that I explicitly said he didn't belong to in the post you replied to and then you mention Hague, Cameron, Blair etc as proof. Bizarre.
3. I can't be arsed to look but I am sure the last Labour frontbench had loads of people on it that went to grammar schools and then went to work in politics before becoming MP's. I am sure members of the current Labour right also had a similar journey. This is the same as Corbyn.
4. The fact that Corbyn is from the Campaign Group and therefore has been an outsider to the previous prevailing currents within the PLP is irrelevant to any of these facts but helpful in having a dig at me for saying something that I didn't say for reasons I didn't mention.
5. 'Milieu' was in inverted commas. Because I didn't use the phrase.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
None of which makes a jot of difference
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Well it does because it demonstrates you didn’t read the thread properly before posting your comments
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
So when you say corby is from precisely the same 'milieu' you don't in fact mean he is from precisely the same 'milieu'. Why can't you say what you mean and stick to it instead of slithering about like an oiled-up snake?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Jesus Mary and Joseph
stop digging for fuck's sake
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
I did say what I meant. I didn't realise I needed to add an explainer for those who can't be arsed to read the comment I was replying to
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
so in your view the parliamentary labour party is the milieu (or 'milieu') of the labour right. there is no labour left milieu. or 'milieu'. yet this milieu (or 'milieu') is somehow not a subset of the wider political circle jerk of ppe graduates: peculiar.
so what you're saying here, rather strangely, is that corbyn is in the milieu (or 'milieu') that is the labour right. even if he doesn't have a ppe degree.
and you have a go at me for not reading the thread
reread SpookyFrank's post and point out to me, please, where he suggests or intimates that corbyn 'suddenly emerged'. go on, i dare you.
THE post? THE post? i responded in quick succession to TWO of your posts. in my FIRST response i pointed out that jc has been an mp for 35 (not 30 odd) years, and had 9 years as a councillor before that. i did not at that point (post 22212) raise any of the issues you put forward here. i think you're getting confused with post 22213, where i did. please could you read the thread more closely, so you don't make an arse of yourself like this again.
i can't be arsed to reply to this sort of 'i'll make it up as i go along' drivel.
but just a moment ago you were arguing that jc was in the same 'milieu'/milieu/current as the labour right. you're not very good at this, you know.
whatever.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
if you meant what you said then you are full of cognitive dissonance.
bimble
floofy
Did you have a nice holiday Pickman's model ?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes, and that's one reason i'm in such a foul mood.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
boat tbh. and i was hundreds of miles north of the trans-siberian.
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Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
I’ll have a last go:
1. SF “I suspect it's not Corbyn's politics the labour right hate him for, so much as the fact he's not from their milleu”
This is not correct. He is from exactly the same ‘mileu’. By upbringing and career he’s from precisely the same social environment. He represents a different current within that shared social environment.
2. You’ve piled in accusing me of failing to understand that Corbyn isn’t a PPE from Cambridge. I agree that he isn’t. That’s why I said he wasn’t before you accused me of having a massive problem for not understanding he wasn’t.
3. I’m not interested in Corbyn’s career choices and so on. It’s uttetly irrelevant to the question of if he’s hated because he’s from a different social environment to the rest of the PLP.
The rest of your reply is you justifying the rest of your original rant on this by asking further questions about unrelated matters and agreeing with your own earlier points.
Treacle Toes
Time
Interesting that the historian here believes that Antisemitism is in the DNA of the Labour party and movements that predate the party; because of their creation to challenge the 'capitalist class' and how the history of Jewish people (through business/industry) in this country is unavoidably linked to that because of the championing workers'rights/critiquing capitalism.
Starts at about 6:45 minutes.
I also wonder about him saying that it antisemitic to imagine Jewish people could be loyal to Israel over the countries they live in. I have certainly experienced that sentimentality/loyality/blinkeredness, certainly not limited to Jewish people though. The idea of 'homeland' and such feelings are not uncommon with people/communities throughout the world who are living the migrant/immigrant experience, even among 2nd and 3rd generations.
Starts at about 6:45 minutes.
I also wonder about him saying that it antisemitic to imagine Jewish people could be loyal to Israel over the countries they live in. I have certainly experienced that sentimentality/loyality/blinkeredness, certainly not limited to Jewish people though. The idea of 'homeland' and such feelings are not uncommon with people/communities throughout the world who are living the migrant/immigrant experience, even among 2nd and 3rd generations.
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