Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[bimble]

i'm sick of reading "The Jewish Community" every single time. What is this collective noun supposed to mean, why not just jewish people if Jews is too difficult to say.

 

[8ball]

i'm sick of reading "The Jewish Community" every single time. What is this collective noun supposed to mean, why not just jewish people if Jews is too difficult to say.

It means self-appointed spokespersons and special interest groups. Those Jewish voices that don't support Zionism seem curiously under-represented.

 

[SpookyFrank]

i'm sick of reading "The Jewish Community" every single time. What is this collective noun supposed to mean, why not just jewish people if Jews is too difficult to say.

By labelling a group of people a 'community' you provide opportunities for dodgy fuckers with dodgy agendas to put themselves forward as spokespersons for that community. If you're just talking about 'jewish people' it's much harder to sell the implication that all those people had a meeting down the Dog and Duck and nominated this one gobshite to tell everyone about the conclusion they came to.

 

[bimble]

Even in that latest Guardian piece eg) "The national coordinating group of the pro-Jeremy Corbyn pressure group said that the activist’s remarks were “deeply insensitive and inappropriate” and had angered many in the Jewish community." ?
I dunno i worry that its seen as somehow just more 'polite'. It certainly carries the implication that there's some homogenous group like we all know eachother and feel a certain way etc. Its rubbish, but the same 'othering' goes on for lots of perceived groups, i think the word community gets misused a lot by officialdom so it might just be a thing that annoys me.

 

[treelover]

Antisemitism row: Momentum drops Peter Willsman from NEC re-election list

The "rant" fella has been dropped from NEC Momentum list. . .

I saw some Tweets about McDonnell in Hastings and I believe he got a good crowd. . .

Any links, i would like John to be PM, serious politician

 

[Wilf]

McDonnell and Co are embarking on a national listening tour as we speak, left behind places, Grimsby, etc.

Seem to remember Blair or even Kinnock did a 'Labour Listens' campaign.

 

[MightyTibberton]

Any links, i would like John to be PM, serious politician

Only Twitter I'm afraid.

Though I've just found this - a Town Meeting it's called here, so maybe I was wrong in assuming it was part of the same series of events. I saw attendance quoted at 175 people, which struck me as not bad for a local political event.

Fighting Words

 

[8ball]

Any links, i would like John to be PM, serious politician

A mate of mine is a Labour party activist and was way more excited about meeting him than Corbyn.

 

[treelover]

John is a great ally of disabled and sick people, though he is so busy these days, he can't do as much.

Yes, many of the the Corbynistas seem a bit more naive, frenetic, more anti-imperialist, less basic issue focused, etc, than the McDonnelites, as it were, behind the scenes his supporters are doing some impressive economic work.

 

[treelover]

Only Twitter I'm afraid.

Though I've just found this - a Town Meeting it's called here, so maybe I was wrong in assuming it was part of the same series of events. I saw attendance quoted at 175 people, which struck me as not bad for a local political event.

Fighting Words

In an address at Sussex Coast College Hastings Lara McNeil, of the Labour National Executive Committee, opened the discussion, giving a personal account of growing up in Hastings, studying at Parkwood 6th Form, and going on to study at medical school; Lara gave her own experience of the dangers of austerity, academies as a privately owned educational model and highlighted the £10M cut in social services announced by East Sussex County Council.

Next to speak was Peter Chowney – local parliamentary candidate for the Labour Party. Peter raised the complexity of addressing the needs of Hastings and Rye, which includes both urban and rural areas, citing local issues, such as gentrification, the need to protect and invest in our fishing industry, transport links, low pay, unemployment, skills gaps, intergenerational unemployment and pockets of extreme deprivation.

This is good stuff,very different from some of the Momentum meetings I attended awhile ago.

 

[agricola]

I see tomorrows' focus will mostly be on John McDonnell.

 

[Balbi]

Fucking hell man, this deep dive into stuff to tag McDonnell and Corbs over stuff other people have said and defining it against the IHRA code is

a) entirely going to fuck Labour if it carries on

b) proving that the IHRA definition is an equally fucked up way of defining anti-semitism

 

[classicdish]

b) proving that the IHRA definition is an equally fucked up way of defining anti-semitism

Labour have already included the IHRA 'definition' (which is a very generalised statement) in their code of conduct. It's the translation of the 11 IHRA 'examples' into code of conduct guidelines that is (supposedly) being argued over: some people want them included as-is, word-for-word, whereas others have pointed out that if you did this some of them wouldn't make sense in the context of a code of conduct and it is instead better to include a more detailed discussion covering the same points.

It would maybe*** be helpful if there were more actual discussion of the details of this and less focus on the "drama".

The IHRA is one page (under 600 words).
Working Definition of Antisemitism
The Labour Code of Conduct is just over 3 pages (under 2000 words).
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/app/uploads/2018/07/ASdoc3.pdf

The Labour Code doesn't list IHRA examples 6,7,8 & 10 (nb they are not actually numbered in the IHRA document)

6. Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

7. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

8. Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

10. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

However...
IHRA example 6 is referred to in guideline 14

It is also wrong to accuse Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

IHRA example 7 is referred to in guideline 12

The Party is clear that the Jewish people have the same right to self-determination as any other people. To deny that right is to treat the Jewish people unequally and is therefore a form of antisemitism.

Re. IHRA example 8 ... guideline 13 includes this:

It is not racist to assess the conduct of Israel – or indeed of any other particular state or government – against the requirements of international law or the standards of behaviour expected of democratic states

Re. IHRA example 10 ... guideline 16 states:

Discourse about international politics often employs metaphors drawn from examples of historic misconduct. It is not antisemitism to criticise the conduct or policies of the Israeli state by reference to such examples unless there is evidence of antisemitic intent. Chakrabarti recommended that Labour members should resist the use of Hitler, Nazi and Holocaust metaphors, distortions and comparisons in debates about Israel-Palestine in particular. In this sensitive area, such language carries a strong risk of being regarded as prejudicial or grossly detrimental to the Party within Clause 2.I.8.

So the key points of divergence all seem to revolve around what is and isn't acceptable discourse regarding the State of Israel, a point discussed in Labour Code section 7, which concludes with "In general terms, the expression of even contentious views in this area will not be treated as antisemitism unless accompanied by specific antisemitic content (such as the use of antisemitic tropes) or by other evidence of antisemitic intent."

The IHRA document itself states "Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic." so the NEC would argue that their guidelines are in this spirit.

They can also point out that since the IHRA examples are introduced with the phrase: "Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:" The Labour Code of Conduct on the other hand introduces it's '7 examples' with: "The following are examples of conduct likely to be regarded as antisemitic."

So there is a clear difference between "...could, taking into account the overall context..." (IHRA) and "...are likely to be..." (Labour Code). The Labour Code lists the 7 examples which are more straightforward and then in sections 11. to 16. addresses examples 6,7,8 & 10 with more discussion of 'overall context'.

So from one perspective the Labour Code has, on the face of it, done a reasonable job of turning the definition, preamble and examples in the IHRA document into a coherent Code of Conduct and the criticisms that it has missed bits out aren't very convincing.

IMO if someone wants to argue for rule changes they should make the argument directly and be specific about what they want, rather than just referencing IHRA.

***On the other hand maybe the "drama" *is* the main point and the details of the Code of Conduct is the distraction? From this point of view the 'best' solution might either be whatever calms down the situation (both inside the party and with a wider public) or an outcome where one faction or another 'wins' the fight, either on policy specific to Israel or more generally re. party leadership and direction.

 

[cantsin]

This is good stuff,very different from some of the Momentum meetings I attended awhile ago.

in what sense 'different' ?

 

[butchersapron]

Just looks like a bog standard boiler plate labour list that any aspiring party bigwig or MP would come out with. In any constituency at any point leading up to an election in labour's history. Or lib-dem.

 

[SpookyFrank]

***On the other hand maybe the "drama" *is* the main point and the details of the Code of Conduct is the distraction?

There's no doubt in my mind that this is the case, although a contributory factor may be that certain parties have worked themselves into such a frenzy over antisemitism in Labour, not least thanks to blanket media coverage of every idiot remark by every nobody with a Labour party membership, that they genuinely think that Corbyn's failure to comply with demands for a minor alteration to an internal policy document is proof that he is an 'existential threat'.

 

[Yogibear]

Any links, i would like John to be PM, serious politician

I think he would be a progressive and determined Chancellor but I'm not sure he would be a good PM. I think Andy Burnham has what it would take, and has made the right moves recently. Both believe in the renationalisation of our railways as a start.

 

[kebabking]

I think he would be a progressive and determined Chancellor but I'm not sure he would be a good PM. I think Andy Burnham has what it would take, and has made the right moves recently. Both believe in the renationalisation of our railways as a start.

most people from the centre of the Tory Party leftwards believe in renationalising the Railways, i'm not convinced that that's the tick box that matters.

McDonnell is a far more capable administrator/executive than Corbyn, he's got a firm grasp of detail and policy, and while he's undoubtedly ideological he's also pragmatic - he'd be a far more capable PM than Corbyn, who seems far like a newspaper columnist than someone who can deal with the competing conflicts within government, the nitty-gritty of policy, and the compromise and collective responsibility that even PM's have to manage.

his one downside is that he has a reputation for being able to start a fight in an empty room - abrasive is one term, can't play well with others is another....

 

[Treacle Toes]

#wearecorbyn trending worldwide, UK-wide and London-wide... Tommy Robinson only trending in London.

What's going on?

 

[bimble]

weird hashtags, looks a lot like 2 personality cults.

 

[agricola]

weird hashtags, looks a lot like 2 personality cults.

Burnley 1-1 Aberdeen definately is

 

[Gramsci]

I thought Labour now had a massive membership, largely of younger, pro-Corbyn Momentum members "on the ground"? I saw someone say the other day that Labour had more members under 27 than any other party had members (or something similar).

In my area Brixton most people I know who joined or rejoined Labour party in Lambeth aren't young. This includes someone I know in her seventies who is long standing member of Palestinian Solidarity Campaign. Corbyn has supported Palestinian rights for years.

So in my area where Labour party has been run by the Progress/ New Labour faction of the Labour party its not all young people. I'd say it was a lot of people who have been involved in community issues for years. But never felt welcome in Lambeth Labour party. Corbyn changed all that.

There has been big increase in Lambeth Labour party membership and the ruling group hate it.

Im involved in local community issues but not a member of the Labour party.

The Labour Cllrs/ Chuka are totally hostile to Corbyn and new members.

Personally I feel the anti semitism in Labour party is only way the right have found to have a go at him. Chuka had the chance to stand against Corbyn and he chickened out.

 

[MightyTibberton]

I can only speak about what I've seen, but in Cardiff at the last election there were large numbers of young looking members knocking on doors and getting the vote out - I think we were called on three times on election day. That may be for a million reasons, including Cardiff's very large student population, but I think the figures I quoted are correct(ish!).

 

[bimble]

That 'WeAreCorbyn' event on twitter is worth a look. Hundreds of thousands of tweets many of them with pictures of him, its pretty weird imo. Has a sort of religious quality to it (all in eye of beholder obvs).

 

[binka]

My dad and his mates have taken back control of the local party from Progress removing them from all their elected positions and even deselected a sitting councillor or two. Nothing to do with Momentum as far as I know - they all pre-date Momentum in the Labour Party by a good few decades

 

[cantsin]

That 'WeAreCorbyn' event on twitter is worth a look. Hundreds of thousands of tweets many of them with pictures of him, its pretty weird imo. Has a sort of religious quality to it (all in eye of beholder obvs).

yep, got a bit predictably daft at times.....

'yielding' .... ( tough one to replace tho tbf)

 

[MightyTibberton]

KKK in play now!

 

[butchersapron]

Burnley 1-1 Aberdeen definately is

Did you see the Aberdeen goal though? That's their season peaked already. On week -1.

 

[Fedayn]

Did you see the Aberdeen goal though? That's their season peaked already. On week -1.

Scored by Lewis Ferguson, son of ex Hun Derek Ferguson and nephew of ex Hun captain Barry Ferguson. Hamilton Accies his club are currently in dispute with Aberdeen over his transfer fee. Aberdeen may be wishing his goal was a tap in rather than a his splendid strike as it will likely up his fee.

 

[Shechemite]

KKK in play now!

?