Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[J Ed]

I do wonder how much of the rise of this sort of thinking is down to the nature in which we consume media, what we read and how we read it. It's a lot easier to read and process a short listicle TEN REASONS WHY THE MOSSAD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL YOUR PROBLEMS than it is to read A Brief History of Neoliberalism and the way in which the former style of publication can be categorised, monetised and boosted means that that is what you are going to see and be exposed to. This leads to a real narrowing of horizons and possibility, and that is leading us I think to some dangerous outcomes.

 

[J Ed]

And skunk for the young 'uns and loneliness mediated through the internet for the older.

Skunk is a good comparison, yeah.

 

[bimble]

All of conspiracism is about easy answers, isn't it, a simple dastardly 'They' who are to blame for all your ills. And so its a perfect fit for the ur-conspiracy. But you all know this. And yes of course, the internet as delivery system has been a game changer.

 

[butchersapron]

I do wonder how much of the rise of this sort of thinking is down to the nature in which we consume media, what we read and how we read it. It's a lot easier to read and process a short listicle TEN REASONS WHY THE MOSSAD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL YOUR PROBLEMS than it is to read A Brief History of Neoliberalism and the way in which the former style of publication can be categorised, monetised and boosted means that that is what you are going to see and be exposed to. This leads to a real narrowing of horizons and possibility, and that is leading us I think to some dangerous outcomes.

That's a horrible way of viewing humans and their capacities that i hoped we had moved out from the 1970s though the work of Stuart hall and related people. It's the way advertisers look at us. We literally don't consume (a loaded term) media in that way. If, we've gone backward in the modern age in how and what we consume i'd like to hear - what's changed? Where have the critical faculties to decode encoded messages gone - and why?

I actually think there's just now a bigger screen/market for more people to say other people are consuming media wrong.

 

[bimble]

One thing that's changed due to the nature of the medium through which we get our info, is our attention spans. Average time spent 'reading' a thing online is 8 seconds i read somewhere, though it was probably a tweet.

 

[Plumdaff]

Humans may not have changed, but most people get their politics from different media these days. In Web 2.0 or whatever it's called now, most people get their politics on FB or Twitter, they aren't on forums or Newsgroups. Yes, there were crap politics in the 90s, and some people may lament the standard of discourse here, but it's much easier to present a coherent argument, and discuss something properly here than on FB. I learn stuff on here, I very rarely learn anything of substance on FB, the links on Twitter are better but the actual place is a shouty centrist hole. I think FB and Twitter skew people towards the simplistic, the black and white, the easy link, the lazy tolerance of stupidity as long as it's on "our side". See today; loads of people on FB denying a problem with antisemitism because the media doesn't like Corbyn rather than pursuing any more complex analysis of the situation.

Are there better ways of talking about politics on social media?

 

[butchersapron]

One thing that's changed due to the nature of the medium through which we get our info, is our attention spans. Average time spent 'reading' a thing online is 8 seconds i read somewhere, though it was probably a tweet.

So by def i'm trapped by asking more. It's def true though. That's the sort of soft-facts we need.

 

[butchersapron]

Humans may not have changed, but most people get their politics from different media these days. In Web 2.0 or whatever it's called now, most people get their politics on FB or Twitter, they aren't on forums or Newsgroups.

Not they don't.

 

[bimble]

So by def i'm trapped by asking more. It's def true though. That's the sort of soft-facts we need.

I don't know what you mean about being trapped by asking more.
Do you think the internet is irrelevant to the topic currently in this thread for example?

You seriously ask:
"If, we've gone backward in the modern age in how and what we consume i'd like to hear - what's changed? Where have the critical faculties to decode encoded messages gone - and why?"

So it looks like yes you think the medium is irrelevant, the internet's changed nothing according to you? That is .. surprising.

 

[butchersapron]

Are there better ways of talking about politics on social media?

All there is is human interaction - or the expanded idea of it - and it can't be done other than by not being a dick. Then being informed, then not being a dick.

 

[Plumdaff]

Not they don't.

Where do you think they get it from then?

 

[Plumdaff]

All there is is human interaction - or the expanded idea of it - and it can't be done other than by not being a dick. Then being informed, then not being a dick.

You don't think certain forms of social media encourage being a dick? You don't think we're more likely to be a dick online than we are to someone in person?

 

[butchersapron]

I don't know what you mean about being trapped by asking more.
Do you think the internet is irrelevant to the topic currently in this thread for example?

I meant by asking for a source for your self-ref unsourced joke.

Yes, i do.

 

[butchersapron]

Where do you think they get it from then?

Politics? From their real lifes - from every single thing that they need to do to reproduce their life - work, school, health, leisure, housing -each time their world coincides with this it is politics - not facebook. They might say something on facebook, bit fb doesn't drive them to do this.

'Get it from' is like it's a disgusting disease that other people get. Ugh.

 

[bimble]

I meant by asking for a source for your self-ref unsourced joke.

Yes, i do.

ok. here's some stuff on the 8 second attention span thing i mentioned.
Our 8 second attention span and the future of news media
Decreasing Attention Spans and Your Website, Social Media Strategy – Adweek
Psychological effects of Internet use - Wikipedia

There's a hundred similar, and books on the same.

I find your attitude just completely bizarre tbh.
You think the internet has basically changed nothing?

How long did JC spend looking at that image before posting his opinion, its a very internet situation i think.

 

[butchersapron]

Some things the Internet never changes.

 

[Plumdaff]

Politics? From their real lifes - from every single thing that they need to do to reproduce their life - work, school, health, leisure, housing -each time their world coincides with this it is politics - not facebook. They might say something on facebook, bit fb doesn't drive them to do this.

'Get it from' is like it's a disgusting disease that other people get. Ugh.

You're trying super hard to find something objectionable in a rather innocuous turn of phrase there.

But it does reveal a misunderstanding, likely due to the vagueness of what I wrote. I should have said 'political discussion' or possibly 'political education' rather than politics, which of course is our life, our values, out material conditions, absolutely. I think a lot of people get most of their political discussion and education online. I don't think many schools and workplaces are full of political discussion or education at present, though of course they are full of politics

So to rephrase, where do you think most people get their political discussion or education from at the moment?

 

[butchersapron]

ok. here's some stuff on the 8 second attention span thing i mentioned.
Our 8 second attention span and the future of news media
Decreasing Attention Spans and Your Website, Social Media Strategy – Adweek

There's a hundred similar, and books on the same.

I find your attitude just completely bizarre tbh.
You think the internet has basically changed nothing?

How long did JC spend looking at that image before posting his opinion, its a very internet situation i think.

This is utterly irrelevant to the question of a pre-existing anti-semitic milieu producing anti-semitic produce.

 

[agricola]

Politics? From their real lifes - from every single thing that they need to do to reproduce their life - work, school, health, leisure, housing -each time their world coincides with this it is politics - not facebook. They might say something on facebook, bit fb doesn't drive them to do this.

'Get it from' is like it's a disgusting disease that other people get. Ugh.

You are right, but the idea that some people - mainly "the young" and the uneducated - get their opinions off the internet is almost an orthodoxy nowadays.

 

[bimble]

This is utterly irrelevant to the question of a pre-existing anti-semitic milieu producing anti-semitic produce.

It was only a response to your post that said

That's a horrible way of viewing humans and their capacities that i hoped we had moved out from the 1970s though the work of Stuart hall and related people. It's the way advertisers look at us. We literally don't consume (a loaded term) media in that way. If, we've gone backward in the modern age in how and what we consume i'd like to hear - what's changed? Where have the critical faculties to decode encoded messages gone - and why?

I actually think there's just now a bigger screen/market for more people to say other people are consuming media wrong.

Which was you denying that the internet as vector is in any way relevant to current antisemitism. Which i found bizarre, because my experience over the last say 10 years suggests most people who think the jews are at the bottom things discovered this truth online.

 

[butchersapron]

You're trying super hard to find something objectionable in a rather innocuous turn of phrase there.

But it does reveal a misunderstanding, likely due to the vagueness of what I wrote. I should have said 'political discussion' or possibly 'political education' rather than politics, which I of course is our life, our values, out material conditions, absolutely. I think a lot of people get most of their political discussion and education online. I don't think many schools and workplaces are full of political discussion or education at present, though of course they are full of politics

It's not innocuous - it's about a model of politics that see w/c people as 'getting their politics' rather than constructing their own politics. That's utterly central. If you just meant many people discuss politics or get their political news from facebook then fine. But the opposite suggestion has to be challenged - after all, it's only an updated version of the idea that the w/c gets fed what to think by the s*n.

 

[Plumdaff]

It's not innocuous - it's about a model of politics that see w/c people as 'getting their politics' rather than constructing their own politics. That's utterly central. If you just meant many people discuss politics or get their political news from facebook then fine. But the opposite suggestion has to be challenged - after all, it's only an updated version of the idea that the w/c gets fed what to tell by the s*n.

I've explained that I meant political discussion and news. And I think that it's a problem, as I think FB, Twitter etc are conducive to the kind of discussions and news that encourage conspiratorial thinking.

 

[butchersapron]

It was only a response to your post that said


Which was you denying that the internet as vector is in any way relevant to current antisemitism. Which i found bizarre.

No it wasn't. That's the exact opposite of what i've argued on here over many years - that the internet has acted as loon detector, then amplifier and had put more people in contact with a broader range of people than before. Now does it in itself do this though?

 

[butchersapron]

I've explained that I meant political discussion and news. And I think that it's a problem, as I think FB, Twitter etc are conducive to the kind of discussions and news that encourage conspiratorial thinking.

I'm sorry, i was writing my reply to you (and others) when you posted yours. I didn't mean to double demand or anything.

 

[bimble]

No it wasn't. That's the exact opposite of what i've argued on here over many years - that the internet has acted as loon detector, then amplifier and had put more people in contact with a broader range of people than before. Now does it in itself do this though?

I haven't been here long enough to read your every post in context of your many years of work so what does this bit mean then?

.. If, we've gone backward in the modern age in how and what we consume i'd like to hear - what's changed? Where have the critical faculties to decode encoded messages gone - and why?

I don't know about anyone else but the full on antisemites I've met over the last few years, and the halfarsed ones, have all got their info online far as i know, and have i think done so lazily through youtube suggestions and fb and such, not by expending any effort at all. I don't really see what point you're trying to make tbh.

 

[butchersapron]

I haven't been here long enough to read your every post in context of your many years of work so what does this bit mean then?


I don't know about anyone else but the full on antisemites i've met over the last few years have all got their info online far as i know, and have i think done so lazily through youtube suggestions and such, not by expending any effort at all. I don't really see what point you're trying to make tbh.

So now you're talking about anti-semites rather than the general population?

I don't know what you're asking me.

You had a quite a point to make a minute ago.

 

[bimble]

oh well. I'm sure both of us had a point not long ago but its getting late.

 

[JimW]

Historically been major political movements in places where only a minority could read so being able to plough through lengthy screeds clearly optional.

 

[butchersapron]

Historically been major political movements in places where only a minority could read so being able to plough through lengthy screeds clearly optional.

What if not internet user and want screeds?

 

[StigoftheDig]

It'd be interesting - in many years time - for some historian to compare the political impact of the arrival of pretty much universal high-speed internet access (and the ability of almost anyone to publish) with the arrival of the printing press, which my fading memories of my history o level recall is high up on a list of "causes of the Reformation".