Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[krink]

Meanwhile over the channel....

French radical politicians booed at rally

"We've been fighting Islamist anti-Semitism for years," lepen added. nice.

 

[stethoscope]

This is so depressing. I am arguing on another forum on this topic and pretty much 100% of my fellow Corbyn supporters are lost in it's all a Tory plot / but Corbyn is perfect and would never be anti-semitic / what about the Jews that say it's not anti-semitic? / I can't see anything wrong with the mural anyway territory.

It's an eye opener isn't it? I thought it was just the total headbangers.

No, having the same conversation with a close friend whom I've always looked upto and politically active/sound for many years, but on this.....

 

[killer b]

Urban 75 as the sensible left. How has it come to this?

 

[lazythursday]

I can't even get the point across that their arguments, even if true(!) are bad politically. That they make them look like antisemites. They just can't see it.

 

[Sue]

Urban 75 as the sensible left. How has it come to this?

We obviously need to up our (collective) game .

 

[belboid]

This is so depressing. I am arguing on another forum on this topic and pretty much 100% of my fellow Corbyn supporters are lost in it's all a Tory plot / but Corbyn is perfect and would never be anti-semitic / what about the Jews that say it's not anti-semitic? / I can't see anything wrong with the mural anyway territory.

Haven't you heard? Corbyn's a bloody sellout! We're not even allowed to call anyone Zio's now, or to scream nazi loving witch into peoples faces. The dream is over

 

[bimble]

It's an eye opener isn't it? I thought it was just the total headbangers.

Not directed at you particularly killer b but why do you think that the eye opening that seems to be going on at the moment is happening now in the wake of this years-old mural story?
I might be wrong but have a feeling that lots of people this week have been acknowledging that there is a problem in a way that they weren't before (which is great imo obvs).
Is it because it was Corbyn himself who 'mispoke' this time or because of the mural itself? Just really curious why this feels like a potential turning point.

 

[03gills]

It's possible to believe anti-Semitism is a problem within Labour whilst also acknowledging that nasty cunts are using it as a stick to beat Corbyn with. You can chew gum & walk at the same time.

 

[bimble]

It's possible to believe anti-Semitism is a problem within Labour whilst also acknowledging that nasty cunts are using it as a stick to beat Corbyn with. You can chew gum & walk at the same time.

Yes, of course. Just looks like more people are acknowledging exactly that now. Or maybe i've just not noticed so many people saying that until now.

 

[lazythursday]

Yes, of course. Just looks like more people are acknowledging exactly that now. Or maybe i've just not noticed so many people saying that until now.

Perhaps on here. To me it feels like a horrifying number of people are desperately minimising the first part of that and screaming loudly about the second.

 

[killer b]

Not directed at you particularly killer b but why do you think that the eye opening that seems to be going on at the moment is happening now in the wake of this years-old mural story?
I might be wrong but have a feeling that lots of people this week have been acknowledging that there is a problem in a way that they weren't before (which is great imo obvs).
Is it because it was Corbyn himself who 'mispoke' this time or because of the mural itself? Just really curious why this feels like a potential turning point.

My own position on antisemitism in the left is unchanged tbh, and I'm fairly sure my post on the topic are pretty consistent. What's eye opening for me is seeing how widespread the ignorance and/or denial is - while there is more people admitting there's a problem, the kickback from the denialists seems much more widespread too.

Why this has blown up now when it didn't two years ago? I'm not totally sure.

 

[killer b]

Probably the big difference is how hegemonic within the party the left are now - more confident and prepared to flex their muscles.

 

[03gills]

Why this has blown up now when it didn't two years ago? I'm not totally sure.

The aforementioned nasty cunts are probably partly responsible (to a certain extent) Parts of the establishment are clearly fucking terrified of JC & will jump on any perceived weakness. This is why it's important to not simply hand wave the problem of anti-Semitism away as smears. That only plays into the aforementioned nasty cunts hands. Dealing with the issue & taking the moral high ground are the best possible courses of action imo.

 

[butchersapron]

Taking the moral high ground would probably be one of the worst responses available. The opposite would be a bit more productive.

 

[Sue]

I posted the link below (provided by someone up thread) to a friend of a friend who was doing that 'is it just me but I don't understand how it's anti-semitic' thing.'

After reading the article, they're uncomfortable about people being persecuted for "thought crimes" as finding it anti-semitic is just an opinion. FFS.

Antisemitism as a “blindspot” for the Left

 

[butchersapron]

(btw the artist did an updated version to make clear his original intentions. It had all rothschilds and george soros. In brackets as we're surely past the point in needing to prove that he and his work is anti-semitic)

 

[03gills]

Taking the moral high ground would probably be one of the worst responses available. The opposite would be a bit more productive.

Sorry I didn't quite word that right. I mean take the moral high ground by actually dealing with the issue.

 

[rekil]

(btw the artist did an updated version to make clear his original intentions. It had all rothschilds and george soros. In brackets as we're surely past the point in needing to prove that he and his work is anti-semitic)

Nicky Oppenheimer on the right. Albert Pike, beardy at the back left.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Enough is Enough! – Jewdas

Interesting piece from Jewdas which attacks Jewish community leaders over this on essentially a class basis.

(I think for a more rounded take you would need to get into the "left wing" conspiraloon stuff, which this doesn't - but it was a bit of a breath of fresh air for me anyway).

 

[The39thStep]

Enough is Enough! – Jewdas

Interesting piece from Jewdas which attacks Jewish community leaders over this on essentially a class basis.

(I think for a more rounded take you would need to get into the "left wing" conspiraloon stuff, which this doesn't - but it was a bit of a breath of fresh air for me anyway).

I am sure I read somewhere that around 2/3rd of Jewish people vote conservative with Labour around 15-20% . Its not a trend that started under Corby's election as leader, although recent events may make a current survey even worse reading, Milliband is often cited as having to bear some responsibility.

 

[butchersapron]

Enough is Enough! – Jewdas

Interesting piece from Jewdas which attacks Jewish community leaders over this on essentially a class basis.

(I think for a more rounded take you would need to get into the "left wing" conspiraloon stuff, which this doesn't - but it was a bit of a breath of fresh air for me anyway).

Sounds a bit like with the anti-semites sometimes but the CST and BOD never!

I've generally enjoyed their stuff before - that's shit though. Who are they talking to? Just the people mentioned? Just the labour party?

 

[bimble]

I am sure I read somewhere that around 2/3rd of Jewish people vote conservative with Labour around 15-20% . Its not a trend that started under Corby's election as leader, although recent events may make a current survey even worse reading, Milliband is often cited as having to bear some responsibility.

The numbers in here suggest (unsurpisingly) that people who identify as religious jews are more likely to vote conservative, non-religious mostly labour. But overall about equal lab/tory it says.

"The Conservative leaning grows from 21% among the secular to 29% of the somewhat secular, 38% of the somewhat religious and 45% of the religious. The Labour leaning moves in the opposite direction (42% for the secular to 24% for the religious)."
Political Leanings of Britain's Jews - British Religion in Numbers

Given that the orthodox population is increasing a lot (7 kids on average per family) this will probably have the expected effect in time, if they vote at all which i'm not sure.

 

[The39thStep]

The numbers in here suggest (unsurpisingly) that people who identify as religious jews are more likely to vote conservative, non-religious mostly labour. But overall about equal lab/tory it says.

"The Conservative leaning grows from 21% among the secular to 29% of the somewhat secular, 38% of the somewhat religious and 45% of the religious. The Labour leaning moves in the opposite direction (42% for the secular to 24% for the religious)."
Political Leanings of Britain's Jews - British Religion in Numbers

Given that the orthodox population is increasing a lot (7 kids on average per family) this will probably have the expected effect in time, if they vote at all which i'm not sure.

Thanks .

A Survation poll before the election found only 13 per cent of Jews were planning to vote Labour in 2017, but two years earlier, in 2015, just 14 per cent said they were backing Miliband's Labour before Corbyn’s ascent to the leadership.

 

[bimble]

There's a connected question, obvs (which i don't know the answer to but have pondered a bit): Where now are the working class jews that used to live a generation or 2 ago in for instance East London? Did they all get their children into universities and move to the suburbs? But that's maybe not a topic for this thread.

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

More on Mear One’s conspiracism and the people depicted in his - even worse! - 2016 version of the mural, here - A Note on “Mear One” And Jeremy Corbyn

 

[Mr Moose]

Perhaps on here. To me it feels like a horrifying number of people are desperately minimising the first part of that and screaming loudly about the second.

There is a problem in grasping the extent though. It’s bad enough, sure, but is it ‘rotten to the core’ as many seem to be saying? Is it 5% anti-Semites ignored by the 20% who saw their posts and 50% who disbelieved either was at fault, or what? To what extent and in what way can people reasonably defend the left against the right making hay?

It is bad and it is also galling to be called bigots by the likes of the Mail and Ian Paisley junior.

 

[J Ed]

This is so depressing. I am arguing on another forum on this topic and pretty much 100% of my fellow Corbyn supporters are lost in it's all a Tory plot / but Corbyn is perfect and would never be anti-semitic / what about the Jews that say it's not anti-semitic? / I can't see anything wrong with the mural anyway territory.

It doesn't surprise me that much, my experience of Momentum etc from the start was that it was full of The Canary readers which as many of us know is an online publication which as founded by a former follower of David Icke and is very much informed on that sort of basis. I really do think that those websites are the ones who have circulated this ideology, providing a sort of 'political education' in anti-Semitism to a huge number of disaffected, atomised individuals who rightly distrust more mainstream sources but who have acted on that distrust by putting absolute trust in far less reliable sources.

 

[bimble]

It dates back to before the internet was the vector, imo. I was given a david icke book in it must be around the year 2000, by a friend who wanted to share The Truth. I was totally impressed as i recall until the final reveal of the jew-lizards at the end. This stuff has been constant in my experience from the same sort of people for at least 20 years.

 

[J Ed]

It dates back to before the internet was the vector, imo. I was given a david icke book in it must be around the year 2000, by a friend who wanted to share the truth, this stuff has been constant in my experience from the same sort of people for at least 20 years.

No argument here, I'm not saying that Kerry Anne-Mendoza invented anti-Semitism but her website and others like it have monetised it and injected it Info Wars-style into the Labour movement.

More 'responsible' people who have boosted The Canary, promoting Mendoza as a voice of the left on the BBC and so on, also should take some blame here.

 

[butchersapron]

And skunk for the young 'uns and loneliness mediated through the internet for the older.