butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Milne and Corbyn himself are the people most committed to this outdated anti-imperialism approach through which this stuff entered. That's what needs to change if support for CLP cleaning out is going to happen.
Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
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cantsin
Well-Known Member
In what way do you see CLPs doing ' the real work' ?
If someone turned up to our CLP meetings and tried to start spouting anti semitism, it would be ridiculous, it wouldn't last long. In some of the less sedate CLP's, I suspect they'd be lucky to leave in once piece.
A/S and the Left is predominantly an online problem, barring the odd f*ckwit and his mural.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
How are you planning to deal with it then?
cantsin
Well-Known Member
I don't claim to have any easy answers ( or a particularly fully formed idea of the actual scale of the problem tbh), am just stating what I do know about the CLP I attend, and what i suspect to be the case re: the rest - they aren't spaces where A/S would ever be tolerated, as per any other form of racism.
My dad tells me of a long and tedious discussion of what counts as antisemitism, rich with whataboutery, denial and deflection at a recent CLP meeting here. It is absolutely something that needs tackling locally: and something that would be better tackled if the leadership make it clear what is and isn't acceptable.
Plumdaff
joy in people
Overt prejudice wouldn't be tolerated in my CLP either. Way too much woolly headed conspiracy bullshit is though and it's that kind of thinking that allows the benefit of the doubt to be given on certain dubious tropes. Just because it is online doesn't mean it shouldn't be challenged, and where else to start talking about this but in CLPs, on CLP social media. I, we, need to be sharper and better about this. First of all is talking about this stuff, making it clear what is acceptable and what is not.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
We are now in the position whereby the Board of Deputies are getting Norman Tebbit, Ian Paisley Jnr and Sammy Wilson onside to condemn racism and bigotry....... And members of the Jewish Voices For Labour being condemned by non Jewish Tories as anti-semites because of their support for Corbyn. This is not an atmosphere where a serious discussion on anti-semitism, which is unquestionably needed, can take place and never will. It is almost as if the genuine concerns of members of Jewish community/people is being used by some people and weaponised against Labour/Corbyn.
And that is the point - what is and what is not acceptable, according to whom, and in which particular time frame?
bemused
Well-Known Member
To be fair no one could have foreseen a group of people turning up to counter protest an antisemitism demonstration would been poorly portrayed in the press.
What are YOU doing about this alleged problem?
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
And this serious discussion will be lead by a bloke who apparently can’t recognise an anti-Semitic mural? This may take some time.
People use the ((( ))) parentheses here as a comforting hug symbol, I did too but recently I found out it's used in anti-Semitic circles. Sometimes, it's genuinely hard to tell what's "safe" and what's not.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
It started being used (long after we were using it for hugs) on social media as a way for far right types to identify Jewish people in their messages without saying "this person is a Jew." When it became apparent this was happening, quite a few people started putting ((())) around their usernames on twitter and the like as a way to reclaim it or take the power away from it and away from neo-nazis. As with so many recent vile things, it grew out of the general miasma of far right shittitude that began to more widely manifest with gamergate but had been brewing in 4/8chan etc for some time.
Speaking of gamergate, one of the common images shared by that oozing pustule of rot was of Anita Sarkeesian, who was public enemy number one for much of it, and it was an antisemitic cartoon of her (she isn't Jewish as far as I know, but that's largely by-the-by). Here's the image. It's absolutely clear and obvious to us that it's antisemitic, but I remember at the time there were plenty of younger people who were encountering this kind of imagery for the first time and didn't understand. Clearly, we would expect someone like Corbyn and those in his team to recognise it, but we also need to realise there's no automatic recognition of this sort of thing, particularly amongst younger people, and as younger generations start to take the lead in political organising it's more important than ever to ensure they're taught this stuff.
cantsin
Well-Known Member
as a committed non LP member, not sure what Butchers is supposed to be doing about all this ?
cantsin
Well-Known Member
New rules / guidelines vs A/S were passed at 2017 conference. Policing online observance of these by people who may / may not be Party members is near impossible - we cld deffo manage a long + tedious discussion at CLP tho , we have some experts practitioners at hand.
I thought I'd made that clear: according to the Labour leadership. They need to set out some red lines, and explain why they're there.
No-one gives a shit about guidelines from conference - indeed, I'm given to understand much of the row was about how conference had got some detail wrong. This is especially true when the leader himself can be demonstrated to be so vague, and so many of the new members' loyalty is to Corbyn rather than the party as a whole.
anyway. Seymour's new blog is good.
Three points about antisemitism and the Left | Richard Seymour on Patreon
Three points about antisemitism and the Left | Richard Seymour on Patreon
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
Some good points raised here about how a lot of people - especially younger people - aren't aware of the antisemitic tropes that a lot of conspiracy theory stuff deals in. On urban i think there a lot more awareness and a lot of credit for that should go to Frogwomen (would like to tag her in this but cant work out how to do it) who alerted a lot of people to this stuff which i for one was not particularly aware of.
What she - and others (violent panda as well it think) did on here is exactly the sort of awareness raising that should be going on across the labour party and the wider left.
Cos Once you see the antisemitic stuff - you cant unsee it.
With regards to the mural, i've remembered where i first saw it - someone posted it on the comments on the "Jeremy Corbyn for PM" face book page about a year ago. It took me all of 1 second to see what it was and I called it out and it was taken down. This is exactly what corbyn did not do - because he did not have the awareness (which in itself is quite shocking in a life long anti-racism campaigner) .
Its not the labour party itself where this shit is coming from - its seeped into the wider left via CT bollocks and the tolerance/blind eye towards reactionary islamist groups within STWC and pro-palastine campaigns.
Someone posted earlier in the thread that this row could actually be a good thing because it would highlight the damaging and toxic influence of CT stuff within the left in particularly with regards to antisemeitsim. I hope this could turn out to be the case.
Ive seen plenty of people on my fb feed and on various comments pages who cant see how the mural is antisemitic - that is not because they are rabid bigots, its through ignorance, a belief that any attack on Corbyn must be bollocks and a reluctance to give credence to accusations of antisemtism (unless its coming from the far right) because of deeprooted hostility to Israel. What they need to realise is that in itself makes them antisemitic.
What she - and others (violent panda as well it think) did on here is exactly the sort of awareness raising that should be going on across the labour party and the wider left.
Cos Once you see the antisemitic stuff - you cant unsee it.
With regards to the mural, i've remembered where i first saw it - someone posted it on the comments on the "Jeremy Corbyn for PM" face book page about a year ago. It took me all of 1 second to see what it was and I called it out and it was taken down. This is exactly what corbyn did not do - because he did not have the awareness (which in itself is quite shocking in a life long anti-racism campaigner) .
Its not the labour party itself where this shit is coming from - its seeped into the wider left via CT bollocks and the tolerance/blind eye towards reactionary islamist groups within STWC and pro-palastine campaigns.
Someone posted earlier in the thread that this row could actually be a good thing because it would highlight the damaging and toxic influence of CT stuff within the left in particularly with regards to antisemeitsim. I hope this could turn out to be the case.
Ive seen plenty of people on my fb feed and on various comments pages who cant see how the mural is antisemitic - that is not because they are rabid bigots, its through ignorance, a belief that any attack on Corbyn must be bollocks and a reluctance to give credence to accusations of antisemtism (unless its coming from the far right) because of deeprooted hostility to Israel. What they need to realise is that in itself makes them antisemitic.
Southlondon
The river's there for a reason
He didn’t see the mural, he saw a 2” pic on his mobile phone. It’s rich that the black shirt supporting daily mail are leading the attacks on a man who was president of AFA the most militant anti fascist group of its time. Corbyn is no anti Semite
I think that's a difficult conceptual jump for most people to make, especially when they imagine themselves lifelong champions of social justice and antiracism. Better to work on making them realise the ideas are antisemitic.
Southlondon
The river's there for a reason
I dislike Israel - a state that basis itself on ethno nationalist lines- that does not mean I dislike Jews. There are plenty of Jews living in Israel that also dislike the way their state treats the Palestinian people. They are not anti Semitic either
teqniq
DisMembered
Actually this is a good point, perhaps he didn't. I had a hard time trying to explain to a friend on FB why the pic she had shared (the same one) was anti-semitic. To bolster my argument I went off and tried to find a larger one to show the points I was trying to make. After quite a lot of searching, found one not very good one that was larger and that was not of the complete mural and this is all on a full-sized desktop display, not a phone.
not-bono-ever
meh
the NWO tag on the LH side isn't ususally visible in most internetz pics either- that sorta gives us a clue as soon as you see it
Southlondon
The river's there for a reason
I think the biggest lesson for Corbyn here is to take more care when he tweets or posts on social media. But yes, a 70 year old man with glasses peering at the mobile phone image would not be able to make out the offensive facial features of the characters. And the point is quite simple. Corbyn is no antisemite
teqniq
DisMembered
True, I had to blow the pic right up to even see what it said in the original.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
i saw a small version of it on a fb feed a year ago - i clocked it for what it was within seconds. Corbyn didn't - he should have done. He himself admits that. Its highlighted a consistent blindness to this stuff within the left that needs to be tackled - and thats not done by making excuses.
yeah, same.
mwgdrwg
Be a Pisces. Jam.
That is the weakest of excuses.
1) Zoom
or
2) Don't comment on things you can't see.
Southlondon
The river's there for a reason
And you have compromised eye sight and views it on a small mobile screen? I had to view it on my laptop to see what it was. That not an excuse that’s a fact
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