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Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

butchersapron said:
The RESPECT def allowed anti-semitism a front door into wider coalition or organisational politics in terms of formal representative stuff - but maybe that was a result of a wider existing culture where anti-semitism was accepted or not challenged. Lefties bending over backwards to Islamists not to appear racist def didn't help though. I suspect some people migrated or cycled from RESPECT into labour.
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Yup the traditional and hard fought values of the the labour movement dispensed with in exchange either for votes or influence.
 
J Ed said:
The fact we are talking about this at all is because of Yvonne Ridley, who stood as a candidate for Respect in Rotherham.
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I keep forgetting that you weren't here in the immediate 2003 RESPECT days. Fair to say that she is known on here.
 
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killer b said:
New Statement! What's this, number 4 or 5?

View attachment 131027
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Obviously, a damage limitation missive (though understandable, given his and the Labour Party's abject failure to root it out in the first place). However, one quite bizarre and telling sentence/statement from this letter does stand out rather glaringly to me. Quote: "While the forms of antisemitism expressed on The Far Right of politics are easily detectable, such as holocaust denial, there needs to be a deeper understanding of what constitutes antisemitism in the labour movement."

Er, what? Excuse me, why does there need to be a "deeper understanding of what constitutes antisemitism in the labour movement"?

It's pretty simple to anyone with half a brain.

Those who hold such views are ideologically racist, pure and simple. No matter what party or what side of the political spectrum they align themselves too. There doesn't need to be any "deeper understanding" about it whatsoever. That hackneyed old fall back position of doing some token 'soul searching' and other dumb, empty gestures, fools no one. Maybe if these cretins want some "deeper understanding" then send them to visit Auschwitz/ Birkeneau on a day trip. That should enlighten them enough to a "deeper understanding". They can even view the Gas Chambers there if they want.
 
I don't think that's true. I think a lot of antisemitic tropes are unthinkingly perpetuated by people who don't understand their significance. I don't think those people are beyond the pale, and I think using terms like 'ideologically racist, pure and simple' will just get their backs up, and push them away from recognising why this stuff is a problem.
 
J Ed said:
I totally forgot about the fact that there were a handful of Trots who converted to Islam around this time.
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Members of the 4th International chanting God is Great delerious on 'anti imperialism'. Whats worse is the segregated meetings at Labour and Respect meetings, the womens rights as shibolith, the wilful blind eye to the horrendous conservatism, the platforms with CAGE and MEND, the support of any crank standing on a Respect ticket etc. And then people wonder why the left lost the support of the working class?
 
RainbowTown said:
Obviously, a damage limitation missive (though understandable, given his and the Labour Party's abject failure to root it out in the first place). However, one quite bizarre and telling sentence/statement from this letter does stand out rather glaringly to me. Quote: "While the forms of antisemitism expressed on The Far Right of politics are easily detectable, such as holocaust denial, there needs to be a deeper understanding of what constitutes antisemitism in the labour movement."

Er, what? Excuse me, why does there need to be a "deeper understanding of what constitutes antisemitism in the labour movement"?

It's pretty simple to anyone with half a brain.

Those who hold such views are ideologically racist, pure and simple. No matter what party or what side of the political spectrum they align themselves too. There doesn't need to be any "deeper understanding" about it whatsoever. That hackneyed old fall back position of doing some token 'soul searching' and other dumb, empty gestures, fools no one. Maybe if these cretins want some "deeper understanding" then send them to visit Auschwitz/ Birkeneau on a day trip. That should enlighten them enough to a "deeper understanding". They can even view the Gas Chambers there if they want.
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That bit was actually a step forward and recognition that they and the leadership group don't understand modern anti-semitism and the forms it which it appears and so need to do some basic work on it. That's exactly what they need to do so that they can reach the position of identifying then fucking off all anti-semitism no matter how or where it appears.
 
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butchersapron said:
As leader - not a chance.
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You are probably right and I was writing in largely in jest, but he does look vulnerable today in a way he simply didn’t before the weekend and hasn't done since well before the election.

His enemies have really identified his weakness and it is hard to see how Corbyn will ever shake this off. Beforehand his complicity in anti-Semitism (by responding poorly) was a widely held allegation. Now it has the feeling of a fact, even from his own statements.

That may matter for the ultimate results. A less than stellar local election result might make those close to him consider his succession more urgently.
 
Plumdaff said:
The real work needs to be done in local parties, on social media and so on. He mostly just needs the sense to realise that he needs guidance from people who know better and do better on this, and that does appear to be dawning on him. I think.
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I don't think local parties are resilient enough to do the real work by themselves - members need some definitive markers put down by the leadership. So far, while each statement has been an improvement on the last, they feel like they've been dragged from him - so they've mostly been ignored his more gobby defenders.
 
All That Is Solid ...: Corbynism and Anti-Semitism

What should be done then? The party is now institutionally anti-anti-semitic, but there remains a persistent and stubborn layer of members who either believe there is no issue, don't think it's worth talking about, or is entirely a weapon used against the leadership by the usual suspects. Clearly, there is much political education to be done. I don't mean every branch and CLP hosting its own diversity training or whatever, but rather a left declaration of war against anti-semitism specifically and the kind of thinking - conspiracy thinking - that incubates it and, in turn, finds a ready audience among large sections of Corbyn's online support. As a rule, the so-called alt-left media sites are dismal failures in this regard and, indeed, stoke the fires of click bait conspiranoia. This has to be opposed by materialist analysis, of understanding the world as it is so we can make the world what we want it to be. This takes a concerted effort at building an intellectual culture that encourages comrades to think critically for themselves, and treat with extreme prejudice any and all explanations that place social ills, however they're defined, at the feet of secret cabals working away in the shadows. Then, perhaps, the culture of carelessness can be overcome and "left" anti-semitism goes back to being what it should be: an oxymoron.
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butchersapron said:
That bit was actually a stop forward and recognition that they and the leadership group don't understand modern anti-semitism and the forms it which it appears and so need to do some basic work on it. That's exactly what they need to do so that they can reach the position of identifying then fucking off all anti-semitism no matter how or where it appears.
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Sorry, but I disagree. Any and every politician should know what antisemitism is, modern or not. It's not rocket science, it's common sense which any decent, ordinary person can comprehend. It's racist, it's prejudice, it's a deliberate, intolerant hatred. Like all racism is. I simply cannot fathom that an experienced and seasoned politician like Corbyn and others (or any politician for that matter) did not recognize such beliefs were being actively tolerated in their party. And worse still, not acted upon. Until now, of course, when they've been found out. After all, the scummy Far Right knuckle draggers have been called out on such things for years and years. Rightly so, too. So for me, there's no "deeper understanding" needed - and no amount of damage limitation or back peddling by the Labour leadership will alter that fact. Or should I say alter that excuse. Because that's what it's beginning to suspiciously sound like.
 
RainbowTown said:
Sorry, but I disagree. Any and every politician should know what antisemitism is, modern or not. It's not rocket science, it's common sense which any decent, ordinary person can comprehend. It's racist, it's prejudice, it's a deliberate, intolerant hatred. Like all racism is. I simply cannot fathom that an experienced and seasoned politician like Corbyn and others (or any politician for that matter) did not recognize such beliefs were being actively tolerated in their party. And worse still, not acted upon. Until now, of course, when they've been found out. After all, the scummy Far Right knuckle draggers have been called out on such things for years and years. Rightly so, too. So for me, there's no "deeper understanding" needed - and no amount of damage limitation or back peddling by the Labour leadership will alter that fact. Or should I say alter that excuse. Because that's what it's beginning to suspiciously sound like.
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You're an idiot stuck in the 1930s then. Exactly what got corbyn in trouble. Catch up with the rest of us.
 
killer b said:
I don't think local parties are resilient enough to do the real work by themselves - members need some definitive markers put down by the leadership. So far, while each statement has been an improvement on the last, they feel like they've been dragged from him - so they've mostly been ignored his more gobby defenders.
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Yes. But it can come from the people around him writing these statements. It'll be helpful to defuse the whole cult of personality stuff.

I have to say Ian Paisley Jnr condemning anti semitism at the rally is really a surreal new pinnacle of opportunistic bs.
 
QUOTE="Orang Utan, post: 15494708, member: 3081"]yes, being blind to racism is racist behaviour - that could be acknowledged by the Corbyn camp[/QUOTE]

No, that might be an unequal power dynamic - which is more complex.
 
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